OT, but you guys might know about shotguns.

Page 1 of 2  
They've been referring to the shot that Dick Cheney shot the other guy with as B-B's. But they also say it's 5mm.
Isn't that bigger than a B-B? About twice as big?
Do they use that term
a) because B-B's sound less violent than bird-shot? b) because the doctors don't know exactly what a B-B is and/or they used a word that they thought everyone could understand? c) I had a fourth possibility but I can't remember it. d) Because *I* don't know what a B-B is.
I also noticed someone call it buck-shot! :)
One network report I heard was that "most of the blast [or at least most of the blast that hit him] hit him in the chest." When I first heard about this, I thought the gun wasn't aimed high enough, and he got one piece of shot in his face, one in his neck, and one in his chest. But it sounds like the gun was pointed right at him. If that is the case, how can the news suggest that he may have been in the line of fire? I don't hunt but I've been in the fields when quail or pheasant are there, and I've seen them quickly fly straight up when I get too close. Even if he was facing the birds, Cheney could not get a shot off while the birds were still at arm level, and no way could he turn around in time to do this (The news says he turned around to fire.) Maybe he's getting old and doesn't lift the gun as easily as he once did?? So he thought he had pushed the gun up but he hadn't. (I have been trap shooting, and they're not light.)
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Journalists, being for the most part liberals, don't know squat about firearms. So it's not surprising that they can't get the story right.

BB is 0.18 inches = 4.57 mm.

e) because the newsies don't know what the hell they're talking about.
For hunting quail, you'd want to use probably No. 7-1/2 or No. 8 shot, maybe No. 6. A No. 6 pellet is about 2mm in diameter; the others are even smaller.

Like I said... they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
some of the "journalists" are amazing. David Gregory at NBC appears to be narcissistic to a pathological extent. His "career" now is only self aggrandizement and attacking the administration, rather than reporting news. I guess he wants to be the next Dan Rather..
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Maybe someday soon there can be a discussion without "lefty" (or neocon) rants. Remember: W has mandated civility. (Rove costs extra, though.)
J
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:51:13 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

That's darn close to 5mm. So they were right! Why did you say they didn't get the story right.?

That was what I meant for c, but you've explained that it's not true. It's d, that I myself didn't know how big a BB was.
Either I've forgotten how big the BB's were in my BB gun, or the term was used generically even back then. Either way, it's my mistake, and not any reporter's.

I didn't say that was a news man. They had video of a lot of people. I don't remember who it was, but if you're going to campaign against newsmen, you should limit it to when they're wrong. Otherwise you look as bad as what you say they are.
My post was not meant to be a trap. Sorry.
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Because he wasn't shot with BB pellets, or anything anywhere close to that big. They would have been using #6, 7-1/2, or 8 shot -- the largest of which is less than half the size of a BB.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2006-02-15 17:59:35 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) said:

More to the point, although a "5-millimeter" pellet (the description on ABC News) is only TWICE as big as the #8 or #7-1/2 shot they were using, it weighs about TEN TIMES AS MUCH as either of them...meaning that at equivalent velocity, it would carry 10 times as much energy. (E=mv^2)
Hell, maybe Cheney WAS using "5 millimeter" shot. I hunt quail quite a bit and I can't imagine how #8 or even #7-1/2 shot could, at 30 yards, possibly penetrate Whittington's jacket, his shirt, his skin, his muscle, his chest membrane and his heart. Maybe they were using depleted uranum...?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Doug Miller wrote:

size dia(inches) 12    .05 11    .062 10    .07 9 1/2    .075-.080" (2.03mm) 9    .08 quail 8 1/2 .085" (2.16mm) 8    .090" (.2.29mm) small birds, quail 7 1/2    .095-.100" (2.41mm) pheasant, quail 7    .10 6    .110" (2.79mm) pheasant, turkey 5    .120" (3.05mm) ducks, turkey 4    .130" (3.30mm) turkey 3    .140" (3.56mm) 2    .150" (3.81mm) geese 1    .160" (4.06mm) BB    .177-.180" (4.57mm) BBB    .190" (4.83mm) T    .20 (5.08mm) buckshot
Possibly the pellet in Whittington's heart is distorted, and 5mm is the largest dimension; when it was loaded into the shell, it measured smaller.
I'm certain that one reason officials aren't giving out more information is because the more they give out, the more there is for people to find conspiracy theories over.
Wood
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:
good chart snipped.

You may well be right. For example, my sources tell me that the night before, someone replaced the shot in Cheney's shotgun shells with larger pellets, knowing that Cheney would shoot this guy the next day.
Also, the reason Hurrican Katrina did so much damage is that it was a Russian Communist hurricane. You can tell by its name.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
mm,
Land isn't flat so it's possible to shoot downward at flying birds. Trap shooting often takes place on flat land but hunting frequently does not. Of course Cheney may have done this for many other reasons.
Dave M.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
If the police were called right away and did a thorough investigation, maybe the stories put out by Cheney and his friends would be believable. If you or I had shot someone under the circumstances Cheney did and took off I suspect we would be in jail now.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Art wrote:

Hunting accidents happen several hundred times a year. They are not common, in fact, quite rare, but not unheard of. Nobody goes to jail.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
mm wrote:

The fact that he was struck by a direct shot is the classic definition of being in the line of fire, isn;t it? What he was hit by was bird shot, which is roughly the same size as a BB used in an air gun. The round shot pellets from a shotgun are sometimes referred to as BB's, usually when talking about where one of them went, like "One of the BB;s hit my winshield!" Which is easier than saying "One of the bird shot pellets hit my windshield."
I don't hunt but I've been in the fields when quail or

One of the likely scenarios would be that Cheney was following a bird that was flying off to one side. As he was swinging around, the buddy was walking around.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I saw a video of something like this a few weeks ago. Father, son, and a few others out hunting quail. Father standing, oh, maybe 150-200 feet away from the rest, using a video camera to record the hunt.
IIRC, you see a bird far off to one side between the hunters and the father, track across the screen, and one of the hunters swing around and fire. At which point the audio has some (bleeped ;-) swearing and the camera hits the dirt.
The son had lost track ("situational awareness" ;-) of where his dad was, and as he was tracking the bird, the shotgun was aimed at his father at the point he pulled the trigger.
The father got hit by some of the pellets.
Not having hunted in this way, I would imagine that this is much more common (compared to similar accidents with, say, duck or deer hunting) when there's bunches of people wandering about, especially if there's beer involved. You just don't hear about it much because the injuries are usually very minor.
[There was a segment on Orange County Choppers a little while ago, where they were invited on a pheasant hunt in Scotland (I think). Given their antics and careless behaviour, I'm amazed they didn't kill each other, the guides and camera crew.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It\'s not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 15 Feb 2006 06:01:16 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Yes, you're right. :-) In my defense. I think they used the word "but" which in that sentence sort of blamed him for being in the line of fire, and I took "line of fire" to mean "expected line of fire". This is back when I was thinking there was no way Cheney could be intending to fire so low. But your last sentence below could account for that, and also the other suggestion that it was hilly, and the birds started lower than either of the men.,
By the way, I hope they guy gets better soon. (I guess I figured that was obvious, but maybe not.)

I guess I had forgotten how big they were. It's been 50 years.

Fair enough. I tend to be too picky at stuff like that, but if that's the practice, fine.

That does seem to account for everything. Thanks.
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Well from all the reports it's not clear what was going on. I've photographed hunts with those farm raised and planted birds. The birds are often so docile that the guides would have to kick them to get them to flush. There were also reports that their wings were clipped, which makes them not fly so good. That could account for the height problem. In any case if you're line abreast and the bird crosses that line a good hunter pulls off the target. In any case you should know your target. I have hunted with guys that weren't aware of where they were swinging their guns. I have also known guys in the Army that didn't know which way to point their M-14. You quickly learn who to trust and who you trust to cover you without shooting you in the back. Richard
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
spudnuty wrote:

Quail fly no more than two feet above the ground or grass. They are ground-huggers, unlike, say, phesant which climb for the clouds.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You quite obviously have never hunted bobwhite quail, sir.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:
-snip-

-snip-
It might be referred to as BB's in your circle-- but it is dead wrong. "One of the #4 shot hit my windshield" would be heard in my circle.
BB is a size of shot. The shot that is proper for quail is in the #8 range. I'm not sure what size load you might have in a 28guage-- but as a reference there would be less than 100 BB sized shot pellets in a one ounce load. There would be closer to 500 #8 shot pellets. They are close to the size of a head of a pin.
I doubt they would be using #4 shot-- but that was what the local news showed last night. Probably what the local store had the most of as we us #4's for squirrel, rabbit & partridge in my part of the world.
Jim
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Its been way to many years since I shot Skeet competitively BUT when loading my own shells I seem to remember loading 7/8 or 1 ounce of shot for competition...and this was in 12 & 20 G loads..When loading 28 or 410 G shells I loaded much less shot..... Just been too many years and my press and load charts are not exactly at my fingertips...
I would "guess" and that is really what it is..a Guess... but a field load would have about 350-400 No 8 "BB's" in it at most... The Pattern at 30 yards in a field gun would put maybe 100 in a 30 inch circle at that distance (again guessing since I have patterened any loads in a long long time....
When I firest read the accounts my 1st thoughts were 200 "BB's just sounded like way too many hitting even a man sized target...at 30 yards...
Bob G.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.