Older house wiring puzzle

[bud--]

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded newsreader?

Still trolling because you can't admit you are wrong? _Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

You are as uninformed about newsgroups as you are about electrical (what a surprise). Newsgroups don't have "profiles". Look them up in Wikipedia.

A non-governmental organization (the NFPA) has power over state, county or municipal governmental agencies that are the organizations that adopt codes? This may be your stupidest idea (out of many to choose from).

Jurisdictions can adopt the building codes they want. There are multiple general building codes. It is not at all uncommon for jurisdictions to modify the NEC.

Still missing (what a surprise) - answers to even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

[hallerb]

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bud doesnt even know how to use the net, he is a master BSer:)

[bud--]

The usual retarded artifacts from the retarded newsreader used by the retarded poster.

You are as ignorant about usenet newsgroups you are about electrical. You think newsgroups are owned by google.

And you continue trolling because you can't admit you are wrong. Your opinions have been demolished by _your own source_ from your own state.

You are unable to answer even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

[hallerb]

sad for you people repeatedly accusiung others of being retarded often means the accuser has mental problems themselves.

hopefully you will get help soon so you can again contribuite to society

[bud--]

You regularly demonstrate your retardation.

Such as by your inability admit you are wrong. Your opinions have been demolished by your own source from your own state. So you turn into a troll. And try to change the subject.

Still unable to answer even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

[hallerb]

No doubt the NEC rules were based on the following.

theres probably no unaltered K&T wiring remaining........

in a 100 years people make changes............. most changes cant be inspected properly

besides whats it worth to avoid a home fire? people can and do die...........

besides possible loss of life the inconvenience is unreal.

with the extreme high costs of home fires .........

incidently a friend stopped by tonight he was a fire investigator, had lots of training and said K&T is bad news / obsolete.

he has worked as a local code inspector and says the NEC is the gold standard for regulations around here,.

[bud--]

With minimal reading ability you could find out what the NEC insulation rule was based on. It is in the "Illinois report". What a surprise - you are wrong again.

The Ouija board again.

More Ouija board.

Still can't admit you are wrong so you continue to troll. _Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

And you still can't answer even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

[hallerb]

hey bud if you can comprehend whats in this link you might better understand whats going on

[bud--]

Hey hallerb - do you *ever* read links?

Looking at the first 10 links there was *one* (anecdotal) report of a fire. Anecdotal evidence in this thread (Clare's relative) proves Romex is unsafe. There were 2 pictures of charring, and one picture of a fire where there was no reason to believe the fire was caused by K&T.

We also find "no ground wire, making the use of GFCI style electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

And "the wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction." This came from someone who sells insurance.

If you read your own links you "might better understand whats [sic] going on." All your opinions have been demolished by your own source from your own state.

But unable to admit you are wrong, you just continue trolling.

You are still unable to answer even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my questions? Aren't you smart enough to answer questions?

[hallerb]

do you know who creates NEC regulations?

[hallerb]

Disadvantages

Historically, wiring installation standards were less stringent in the age of knob-and-tube wiring than today. Compared to modern electrical wiring standards, the main shortcomings of knob-and-tube wiring are: knob-and-tube wiring never included a safety grounding conductor; did not confine switching to the hot conductor (the so-called Carter SystemCarter system The Carter system was a method of wiring 3-way switches in the era of knob and tube wiring. Two of the four switch combinations are dangerous, and this wiring method has been prohibited by the National Electrical Code since 1923.... places loads across the common terminals of a three-way switch pair); and it permitted the use of in-line splices in walls without a junction box (and thus exposing a potential fire hazard of an uncontained spark caused by arcing following mechanical failure of the splice). Compared to modern thermoplastic wiring insulation, the K&T wiring was less resistant to damage, but had a higher temperature rating.

Knob and tube wiring can be made with great ampacity. However, most existing residential knob and tube installations, dating to before

1940, lack the ampacity that is desired today because of the paucity of circuits and the fineness of the wire gauge. Although these installations were adequate for the electrical loads at the time of installation, modern households use a range and intensity of electrical equipment unforeseen at the time. Homebuyers often find that existing K&T systems lack the ampacity needed for today's levels of power use. As household power use increased following the Second World War (because more appliances per household were being plugged in), first-generation wiring systems became susceptible to abuse by homeowners who would avoid repeatedly blowing fusesFuse (electrical) In electronics and electrical engineering a fuse is a type of overcurrent protection device. Its essential component is a metal wire or strip that melts when too much current flows, which breaks the electrical network in which it is connected, thus protecting the circuit's other components from damage due to excessive current.... by overfusing the circuits, thus subjecting the wiring to heat damage due to higher levels of current.

Knob-and-tube wiring may also have been damaged by building renovations. Its rubber insulation will be dried-out, thus brittleBrittle A material is brittle if it is liable to fracture when subjected to stress . That is, it has little tendency to deform before fracture. This fracture absorbs relatively little energy, even in materials of high Strength of materials, and usually makes a snapping sound.... when handled, or it may have been damaged by rodents or carelessness (for example, hanging objects off wiring running in accessible areas like basementBasement A basement is one or more Storey of a building that are either completely or partially below the ground floor. Slab-on-grade foundation buildings do not have basements.... s).

Currently the United States NECNational Electrical Code (US) The National Electrical Code , or NFPA 70, is a United States standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment. It is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the National Fire Protection Association .... forbids use of loose, blown-in, or expanding foam insulationBuilding insulation Building insulation refers broadly to any object in a building used as insulation for any purpose. Whilst the majority of insulation in buildings is for thermal insulation purposes, the term also applies to acoustic insulation, Fireproofing, and Cushioning .... over K&T wiring. This is because K&T is designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result, energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in affected homes.

As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new homeowners policiesHome insurance Home insurance, also commonly called hazard insurance or homeowners insurance , is the type of property insurance that covers private homes.... at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or an electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.

[bud--]

Wow - you know who the NFPA is. And you found an entry portal. That says absolutely nothing. What is your point?

Wow - you can copy. No source given. What is your point?

Apparently just that you are still trolling.

You could just admit you are wrong. Your opinions have been demolished by your own source from your own state.

I forgot to ask yesterday. Do you agree with one of your top 10 google search links? "The wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction" The source was an insurance salesman. You always agree with insurance people.

How about your #2 google search link? We also find "no ground wire, making the use of GFCI style electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

Still not able to answer even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

[hallerb]

Have you checvked recently for updates on the illinois report?:)

[hallerb]

NEC prohibiting insulating around K&T, a wiring 70 plus years or older with no grounds, insulation falling off, connections buried in walls making it impossible to inspect, no boxes meaning a overheated connection is more likely to cause a fire, wiring with most rooms having just one outlet, with extension cords, their own fire hazard run amuck, unaltered K&T lacking GFCIs , grounds and every other safety upgrade............

geez why would you want it? beyond its cheap?

just like the old car wrecking into a 2009, which bud never commented on.

the driver of the 59 belair very dead, the 2009 malibu driver survives.

yeah bud why bother with updating your home.??

a 80 year old home has had lots of paint jobs over its life, if you totaled up just the cost of painting its probably enough to pay for a complete rewire.

no one really ever owns a home, we are entrusted it for our lifetime, which a home is generally many times a humans lifetime.

so be like some friends, tar the roof when it leaks dont reshingle, dont paint the exterior, it just needs painted again, just let your home ROT, most likely it will outlive you anyway, just be the eyesore of the neighborhood:(

if you were really a electrician you would love K&T since its a chance to rewire homes bringing safety and convenience, plus a profit for YOU........

you just talk drivel, which demeans any posts you make here.

and calling me a retard? do you have any idea of how many mentally deficent people there are in the country? most family members take great offense of retard remarks............

funny on how badly you have made yourself look................

[bud--]

Have you considered just admitting you are wrong instead of trolling? _Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

Have you considered answering even answer one of the questions?

Do you agree with one of your top 10 google search links? "The wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction" The source was an insurance salesman. You always agree with insurance people.

How about your #2 google search link? We also find "no ground wire, making the use of GFCI style electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

Do you agree with one of your top 10 google search links? "The wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which is a problem because copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly different speeds" and "copper into aluminum is where things get tricky - if the water (current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you are going to get a backup at that junction" The source was an insurance salesman. You always agree with insurance people.

How about your #2 google search link? We also find "no ground wire, making the use of GFCI style electrical outlets (receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my questions? Aren't you smart enough to answer questions?