Older house wiring puzzle

[bud--]

The hazard is anecdotal proofs, which this thread seems to be full of.

[bob haller]

the proof the OPs wiring is a hazard is found in his first post. he admitted its been hack repaired and altered. the perfect combo for a home fire:(

since the OP is working for a client he will be on the hook if theres a fire, even years later.

[bud--]

Whatever the condition from the OP, that is not a reflection on K&T in general, as you want to claim.

Still missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. Or that it is more of a problem than, for example, early 2 wire Romex.

[bob haller]

obviously anything thats been around this long is obsolete, lacks new safety upgrades, and is great risk of hack repairs over its life.

have you called statre farm to confirm they wouldnt write new policies for K&T homes?

[stan]

As in 'early' 1950s installations of domestic electricity here! Meter in the halfway, 115 volt two wire service, no ground, two cartridge fuses probably 20 or 30 amps fuses, one in the neutral and one in the live, one ceiling light (with a pull cord) in the kitchen with everything, small radio, fridge, and when required an electric iron (replacing the ones you used to heat on top of the stove) plugged into it with extension cords. Quite often a water pump under the sink, unless one still 'dipped' water from the well outside. Later on maybe a single outlet for the big wooden TV set (only one channel until

1958); if that wasn't also plugged into the ceiling light! Wouldn't even be allowed for hook-up these days! There is also a story about someone who wired their own house, back then, as electricity became available in small rural communities, couple of hundred miles from the main city, by running individual wires from each individual light and outlet location in the house. Apparently ended up with a huge mess of wires at the fuse panel; must been quite job to get ten wires on one terminal!

[clare]

"Home Run" K&T wiring was not that uncommon way back when. Called "common buss" also I think, generally more often used with low voltage DC "farm power" setups (delco plant, Winco etc). where fusing was generally NOT in a common distribution panel The Positive "buss" was a heavy wire, bar, or pipe down one side of a house, and the negative down the other side. Circuits were strung across the building. If someone was familiar with that kind of wiring and then wired a house to a main panel, it could get very interesting - not to mention a REAL BUGGER to sort out!!!!

[bud--]

So are you too lazy or too stupid to edit out this garbage?

"Obviously" is not proof. Obviously missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. I don't believe electricians in this newsgroup agree with you.

What evidence is there *hack* repairs are common on K&T? I don't remember ever seeing any.

Is *hack" wiring more common than with other wiring methods?

Your opinion doesn't count. Where is a source? Never anything but opinion and anecdotes.

In the link supplied previously an insurance company did not provide evidence when challenged. Insurance companies employ lots of actuaries to determine risk. I see no reason to believe insurance companies have determined such a risk.

Have you read that in Minnesota State Farm (probably) had a surcharge on older services and the state insurance regulator ordered the surcharge dropped.

Because an insurance company does something does not necessarily mean there is a rational basis. Where is your evidence?

I see no reason to believe State Farm is not redlining.

[bob haller]

would yopu be happy to pay say 100 bucks more a month for homeowners insurance so homes with K&T and other obsolete systems can have insurance?

are YOU stating the CURRENT NEC regulations havent made new installs safer?

[bob haller]

K&T requires good soldering skills. thats not common today, worse connections arent in boxes so a failing joint that overheats can easily cause a fire.........

[bud--]

Still too lazy/stupid.

That begs the question of whether K&T is significantly more hazardous than other wiring. You have still not provided a reliable source that says it is. The only relevant link in this thread is that an insurance company, which employs actuaries to get casualty information, did not show K&T was a hazard when challenged.

Where is your evidence. All you provide is FUD.

Also begs the question of whether existing K&T is significantly more hazardous.

I have read that K&T has been 'recently' used in areas subject to flooding because it dries out faster. K&T is allowed to be used by "special permission".

[bob haller]

ght it)

you ignored my questions and failed to respond to the specific issue.

would you pay more for homeowners insurance so people with K&T could get insurance

please supply a link to the info of K&T being used today. does it have a ground conductor? GFCI? arc fault breaker? boxes for connections?

[bud--]

Still too lazy/stupid.

You continue your compulsive FUD.

The links to state agencies that have been provided say:

- an insurance company did not provide any justification for not insuring a house with K&T

- an Illinois investigation of insulation around K&T found no record of hazard - apparently you think they ignored the intrinsic hazard of the K&T???

You have provided no reliable evidence that K&T is hazardous.

It is a red herring. Where is the casualty information that K&T is more hazardous. Maybe you could call your buddies at State Farm and get it.

All I have read is that it was used 'recently'.

[bob haller]

when anyone wit K&T decides to sell their home would they please report back here with what happens?

I asked a realtor about this question yesterday, they had sold my oms house, I bumped into them at the grocery store.

they said its not very common here anymore, at least partially because you cant get homeowners insurance. at home resale time house must be rewired to current code, or no insurance no sale.

he did report one derelict home sold, the buyer paid cash for a home under 20 grand. he said the new owner had a home fire, not caused by wiring and lost his entire life savings. owner was attempting to heat house in winter totally by fireplace, chimney failed.

everyone should have homeowners insurance

[bob haller]

my moms house

[cavedweller]

18 months ago. SW Ontario. Purchaser used a copy of a recent ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) inspection provided by us to obtain insurance. Of course, the major load circuits had been replaced previously with current code wiring and a 200A service panel had been installed. K&T was still present in some second floor lighting and wall plug circuits.

[bud--]

There is no possibility houses have to be rewired to the 2008NEC. AFCIs on most circuits? Kid-proof receptacles in most locations? Receptacles at current spacing requirements? Ufer earthing electrode required? Boxes have light fixture or fan rating? All wiring has a ground? All grounded receptacles? Eliminate almost all of the GFCI exceptions? Replace old stove/dryer circuits that have a neutral but no ground? Garages must have a ground wire in the feeder? Everything meets the UL standards in effect now?

Either you misunderstood the agent or he is as wacked-out as you are.

K&T is code compliant.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

[bob haller]

if you cant get homeowners insurance then a major upgrade of wiring is necessary. once its a major upgrade and not just a repair curerent codes must be met...........

as they must with other safety issues.

[JIMMIE]

Any wiring that is in poor repair is hazardous and this is usually the case with K&T.

[bud--]

The idea that you cant get insurance unless the house meets "current code" is more wacko than your comments on K&T. What insurance company requires all the features above?

As I have said several times, Minnesota required State Farm (probably) to drop a surcharge for older services. Insurance companies, at least in some states, are not allowed to do whatever they want.

If wiring is upgraded, only the parts of the system that are modified must meet "current code", just like a "repair".

Existing K&T can be picked up in a rewire - it is allowed by the code. The NEC does not require replacement of K&T. So in your "major upgrade" K&T can remain.

Still missing - a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.

[bud--]

In many years of doing trouble calls I have not seen that. It certainly was not "usually the case".

The 2 sources in this thread, from state agencies, do not indicate a particular problem with K&T.

Where is a reliable source that says K&T is hazardous.