a ceiling light in the middle of each leg a light switch at the end of each leg a light switch at the intersection.
Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only one switch (at the end of one leg).
In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.
Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4- way) and how many of each?
How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?
You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)
To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes and puzzle out the wiring. There's many different ways they could be hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have :)
You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)
To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes and puzzle out the wiring. There's many different ways they could be hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have :)
nate
You can't use a four way as a substitute for a 3-way. There's no common terminal on a four way switch.
I'm counting only 2 switches. I had same problem and learned that you have to replace exact wires on switch when you replace a switch.
I kept playing around with it and finally an electrician with his meter figured it out for nothing as he was making an appraisal on another job for me.
Sure you can; any of the 4 terminals can be the common, with the travelers connected to the opposite 2 (and the one directly across unused).
To the OP, you need to continuity-check the wires to figure out which ones are the "travelers" -- these go between the switches only. The original 3-way switch locations will have 2 travelers, the 4-way location will have 4 travelers (2 each connected to the 2 at each
3-way location).
Google "4 way switch diagram" and you'll find more information -- there are many ways to run the physical wires, but they all degenerate to the same switching flow.
How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4 when the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is 'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.
The 4-way switch just passes through or crosses the wires from one side to the other, depending on position. Putting 1 and 2 on the top, and 3 and 4 on the bottom of the switch:
Switch down: 1 3, 2 4 Switch up: 1 4, 2 3
So to use as a 3-way, use terminal 1 as common, 3 and 4 for the travelers, leaving 2 unused
Switch up: 1 3 Switch down: 1 4
Which is exactly what a 3-way switch does (and you can start from any of the terminals as common, with the 2 furthest away for the travelers).
In every instance in the diagrams you posted, there is no terminal that is always 'in use' on any of the 4 way switches. There is no common.
In this diagram:
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terminals (1 & 2 on top, 3 & 4 on bottom), the terminals used are either
1 and 4 (top left and bottom right), or if the switch is thrown, 2 & 3 (top right and bottom left). which terminal is the common?
That's because the diagrams are only showing one position of the switch (crossed); when the switch is in the other position, the switch connects the top 2 terminals (in that diagram) together, and the bottom 2 terminals together. That makes any of the terminals common to the 2 terminals opposite it.
This set of diagrams shows the actual operation of the circuit better:
I used to live in a house that I was renting from a guy who had "updated" the electricals (translation: he had replaced the switches and receptacles.) Unfortunately he wasn't real careful wiring up the three way switches, and to make matters worse, the house had old cloth covered wiring which meant that all the wires were a dirty brownish- grey color :)
I figured out how to make the hall lights work properly in an afternoon, but it's one of those things, I can *do* it but God help you if you want me to show you *how.* Worse yet if I have to do it over the Internet...
Probably the easiest thing is to pull everything out of the wall, disconnect everything, and first identify which wire is still hot (after you turn the breaker back on, because you turned it off before you started, right? RIGHT?)
From there, hopefully everything will be self evident (pay special attention to which individual wires come from which cables) but if not, either hooking up a 3-way at the "hot" location and continuing to the other locations and/or using a 9V battery and a test light can help trace out what goes where.
Whenever a system like this craps out, the problem is invariably the 4 way switch. They just don't seem to be made as well as single poles or 3 ways, possibly because of it's switching complexity. For this reason I wouldn't advise using a 4 way anywhere that it's not required. It's also more expensive
Hmm, I found an old snappy style 4-way at the base of the stairs when I replaced it (could have been a three way, but apparently builders used a 4-way because that's what they had;) the only reason I replaced it was that the girl didn't like brown switches. It appears to have been there since the late 40's. I still have it in my junk box...
or is this one "don't make 'em like they used to" kind of deals?
Hmm, I found an old snappy style 4-way at the base of the stairs when I replaced it (could have been a three way, but apparently builders used a 4-way because that's what they had;) the only reason I replaced it was that the girl didn't like brown switches. It appears to have been there since the late 40's. I still have it in my junk box...
or is this one "don't make 'em like they used to" kind of deals?
nate
You can buy good switches today, but back in the forties, I don't think you could buy crappy switches. I think that because it's a complex switch, it is more vulnerable to failure. What I can say for certain is that whenever I'm diagnosing a malfunctioning multi-switch system, the bad switch is invariably, the 4way.
Take all three switches loose and find the only hot wire in the bunch. Put a 3 way there. Finished (The hot goes to the common)
Go to the 4 way and find the two wires the first switch makes hot when you switch it back and forth. Put a 4 way there with those two wires hooked to the same color terminals on the 4-way Finished
Go to the last 3 way and find the wire that does not get hot when you flip the other two switches. Put that wire on the common of the last
Yo're going to have to write everything down and figure it out like a puzzle in the Sunday magazine or a game book. Make a drawing, assign a label to each wire. Keep it as a permanent drawing in your file for house repairs.
IIUC an electrician will have to do the same thing and will be only 2 or 3 times as fast as you are, while charging a lot for his time.
Acquaint yourself fully with the way 2 3-way and one 4 way swtich systems work, but bear in mind that the 4-way in your case isn't necessarily at the intersection, though it might be. Then acqquaint yourself with other ways of connecting the lightbulb, not necessarily at the end of three switches but in the middle possibly too, or before all the switches. That's something I can't keep in my head myself, but I've seen diagrams.
It may be best at some point to unscrew the lightbulb that is controoled by all these switches to keep return voltages from confusing you.
If you haven't changed any switches since this all worked, the one switch or two is broken, but they are of the right kind. Check how many wires is coming out of each. If you're lucky, that will firmly establish which is the 4-way switch, but maybe not.
Measure the voltage at each wire. The voltage between that wire and every other wire int he box and the voltage between each wire and ground. Then flip the switch and measure again. Later you may want to disconnect wires from the switch or from other switches to keep from being confused by
By using an external wire that reaches from one switch to the other, preferably with alligator clip jumpers on each end. first measure the voltage between wires at different switches. In those cases where the voltage is zero (analog meter) measure resistance. You're looking to find which wire comes out where. The color of the wires should help you find the other end of each wire, but sometimes they paint a black wire white, etc. Always measure voltage before trying to measure resistance.
It will be a fascinating puzzle, but if you make enough measuremennt and apply logic for long enough you should be able to fighure out which wire is hot, which is the neutral, whiche wires are travelers to the second (logical) switch, and which are travelers from the second switch to the the third, and which go to the light. But don't forget that the second set of wires from the emiddle switch or the first switch could got to the light and not be travelers at all.
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