Just had a thought about surge suppressors...

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Maybe W_ would like to explain to us how it is that surge protection INSIDE an appliance is usefull in preventing damages from surges, yet a plug-in protector won't provide any protection. Both typically use similar devices, ie MOV's and operate under the same limitations, ie neither the appliance nor the plug-in has a short connection to earth ground, without which W_ claims no protection is possible.
Of course this has been asked of W_ before, with no answer, just more rants. And let me think. Which device would I rather have see a surge and first deal with it? The protection inside the $2000 HDTV or the one inside the $20 plug-in surge protector?
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On Oct 5, 7:58am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

If protection inside an appliance accomplishes what a plug-in protector does, then why waste so much money on a plug-in protector? Protection inside appliances assumes the surge will be earthed before entering a building. Otherwise internal appliance protection may be overwhelmed. The plug-in protector would do nothing. Worse, it may even provide paths bypassing appliance protection (if the 'whole house' protector is not installed). As demonstrated in previous examples, a surge was even earthed destructively through a network of powered off computers because plug-in protectors were used (without the essential whole house protector).
A plug-in protector provides nothing useful; may even make appliance damage easier. But it sure is profitable. And the properly earthed 'whole house' protector is still required if or if not a plug-in protector is installed.
Should we spend tens or 100 times more money for the plug-in protectors - to only do what is already accomplished inside an appliance? Or earth one 'whole house' protector so that all household appliances are protected?
This answer was provided repeatedly. As stated by industry professionals, science papers, and generations of experience - even those who installed surge protection 100 years ago - a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. One properly earthed 'whole house' protector is essential so that protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Plug-in protector provides nothing useful, does not even claim to provide that protection, AND can even contribute to damage of adjacent appliances.
So that plug-in protector does not contribute to appliance damage, earthing a 'whole house' protector is necessary. Once the 'whole house' protector is properly installed, then protection inside each appliance is not overwhelmed. Why would anyone spend tens or 100 times more money for plug-in protectors? Because myths so often replace simple science.
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Still never shown that there is protection inside even a significant percentage of appliances.
Still never answered - traders question above. .

And the required religious mantra.
Still no link to another lunatic that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Still never answered - embarrassing questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug- in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? - How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the IEEE example, pdf page 42? - Why does the IEEE guide say in that example "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plugin] protector"? - Why does responsible manufacturer SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use." - Where is the link to a 75,000A and 1475Joule rated MOV for $0.10. - Why should anyone believe there is surge protection "inside every appliance".
For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
-- bud--
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Posted repeatedly were many internal protections found in all appliances. But when selling a $3 power strip with some ten cent parts for $25 or $150, then Bud's job is to post myths, lies and insults. Protect those sales.
No plug-in protector manufacturer claims protectin in numeric specs. If those spec numbers existed, Bud would have provided them. Bud makes numerous accusastions to avoid the only relevent fact. Plug-in protectors do not even claim to provide protection that Bud can only imply with myths, lies, and insults. Bud wll never provide a single plug-in protectors spec that claim protection. He cannot. So Bud will even post insults. No earth ground in plug-in protectors means no effective protecxtion.
As any industry professional has known even 100 years ago. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Telcos do not waste money on Bud's plug-in protectors. Telcos need protectors that are effective. Your telco switching computer, connected to overwhead wires alll over town, must never be damaged by maybe 100 surges during every thunderstorm. Everywhere, your telco earths 'whole house' type protectors for effective protection.
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Posted *never* were internal protections found in all appliances. .

The lie repeated. Specs were posted in this thread (and numerous others). .

w__s religious mantra protects him from conflicting thoughts (aka reality).
Still no link to another lunatic that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Still never answered - embarrassing questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug- in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? - How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the IEEE example, pdf page 42? - Why does the IEEE guide say in that example "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plugin] protector"? - Why does responsible manufacturer SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use." - Where is the link to a 75,000A and 1475Joule rated MOV for $0.10. - Why should anyone believe there is surge protection "inside every appliance".
For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
-- bud--
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And again Bud posts the same half truths AND still never posts a single plug-in protector spec that claims protection. Even plug-in protector manufacturers do not claim protection from the typically destructive surge. So again, Bud posts the same half truths and false accusations.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - where surge energy must be harmlessly absorbed. No earth ground means no effective protection - which is why Bud cannot provide any plug-in spec that claims protection. Bud's job is to say anything to protect those obscenely profitable sales.
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W_Tom is a mental case. Despite endless requests, by many people, he has been unable to cite ANY reliable sources for his idiotic theories. Bud, meanwhile has repeatedly posted links to the government agenices and safety organizations that have published the peer reviewed and accepted information on this subject. Bud has also repeatedly asked w-Tom for ANY links to cites for his absurd claims, and he ignores those requests. He has to, because NO reputable established source agrees with him.
Debating him point by point is useless, as he is not a rational person. He's a rambling, babbling, idiot.
You have been warned. Some of his advice is just plain wrong, and other parts, if followed could cause injury or death to you or your loved ones.
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On Oct 8, 11:40am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Does salty@dog only post insults? Does he ever demonstrate technical knowledge? Does he ever post something relevant to the topic or helpful for an OP?
The subject is "thought about surge suppressors". Where does he provide useful insight or even address the topic - here or in other discussions?
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As I pointed out very explicitly, w_tom is a mental case and there is no reason for a sane person to engage him in a point by point discussion. Just be warned that his advice has at times gone beyond inaccurate all the way to DEADLY if followed.
End of Story.
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On Oct 9, 1:00 pm, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Why snipped-for-privacy@dog.com will not engage in a "point by point discussion". Also appreciate why snipped-for-privacy@dog.com routinely attacks other posters. This messenger exposed snipped-for-privacy@dog.com for posting myths. snipped-for-privacy@dog.com will not post 'point by point'. Last time he did that, then obvious was he did not even know how electricity worked. Somehow snipped-for-privacy@dog.com even forgot what was taught to 2nd grade science students.
Does snipped-for-privacy@dog.com ever demonstrate technical knowledge? Does he post something relevant to this topic or helpful for an OP? Of course not. He only posts what he understands - disparaging remarks.
The subject is "thought about surge suppressors". Where does he provide useful insight or even address the topic? He cannot and he will not. He is still smarting from being identified as technically naive.
Provided by others are answers to simple questions such as 'how does that plug-in protector stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not stop?' Or 'where does all that energy get dissipated harmlessly?' Or 'where is that manufacturer spec that claims to provide protection?' Where does snipped-for-privacy@dog.com provide such answers? He only posts what he understands - insults and personal attacks.
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Q.E.D.
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Why wont w_ answer simple questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug- in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"? - How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the IEEE example, pdf page 42? - Why does the IEEE guide say in that example "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plugin] protector"? - Why does responsible manufacturer SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use." - Where is the link to a 75,000A and 1475Joule rated MOV for $0.10. - Why should anyone believe there is surge protection "inside every appliance".
Why cant w_ find anyone, even on the lunatic-filled internet, that agrees that plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
-- bud--
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Support for w_s claim - zero. People who agree with w_s claim - zero. People who disagree with w_s claim - numerous. .

If the village idiot knew what ESD was - static discharge - he would know it was very short duration.
If the village idiot read his own sources he would know that the energy in the ESD tests was 0.011J max and the duration of the discharge is on the order of 100 nanoseconds. .

w_ has no facts.
-- bud--
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Here is a nice Intermatic:
http://www.smarthome.com/4872/Phone-Coax-Surge-Protector-IG1300-4T-2C/p.aspx
If you dont need whole-house power surge protection:
http://www.smarthome.com/4874/1-Line-Coax-Cable-Protector-IG1CM/p.aspx
Or maybe an in-wall protector for coax:
http://www.smarthome.com/4421/In-Wall-Power-Center-MP-HTFS-IW-HC/p.aspx
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I agree with the other poster in that coax surge protection should be done at point of entry to your home. Which would make my previous post for the Intermatic dedicated coax protector best, or if your coax comes in close to your mains panel just add the Intermatic whole-house surge unit. Best to stop the surge before it gets down the cable into the house.
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