I need plans for horse drawn vehicles

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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:36:12 -0400, Peter D. Hipson

I guess you missed the part in my original posting. I ALREADY OWN SEVERAL HORSES. So, I am already paying for all this stuff, and yet the horses are just standing around most of the time, other than some weekend riding. Yes, they are costly, but they are wonderful animals and pets, and I will always have horses because I love being around them.
I just need to make them do a little more work now.

I am not the youngest, and although I can ride a horse pretty well, the last time I jumped on a bicycle, all I wanted to do was get it out of the barn and into the other shed. Well, I managed to wipe out on the gravel driveway and was hurting. Just dont have the balance I did when I was younger !!! Maybe if I welded two of them together, so I had 4 wheels, I would do better.
PS. My horses are not bothered at all by cars, trucks, tractors, mowers, farm equipment, power tools, etc. But if a bicycle goes past them, they all scatter !!! The time I wiped out on the gravel, I was right by the horses. I thought they were all going to jump the fence from fear. I was hurting, but I got a good laugh from them horses !!!
Mark
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marad,
I agree with Mr. Hipson. Your pets are likely saddle ponies not draft horses. Saddle horses are not bred or trained in this work. I suspect that you lack much experience as a wagoneer and will lose interest as you look into the expense involved in this project. If not you may wish to get some mules. Why are horses terrified of bikes? Last time I was ahorse when bikes came by I thought I was a dead man.
Dave M.
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Must have been terrifying. Last time I was on a horse there were a lot of people making noise, but the horse was not bothered at all. It just kept going round and round.
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wrote:

The last time I went to my doctor he told me I'm a pony.
Yeah. I was explaining to him about my sore throat when he said "you are a little horse". :)
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:36:12 -0400, Peter D. Hipson

This article seems to have come at the right time......
Mark
FROM: The La Crosse Tribune http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2005/08/17/news/02gas.txt
Published - Wednesday, August 17, 2005
Tired of your gas-guzzler? Try a hay-burner
By REID MAGNEY / La Crosse Tribune
. High gas prices got you wishing for the good old days when you could jump on a horse and go?
The Amish still rely on horses and buggies to get around the area why can't you?
Just imagine yourself riding higher than a Hummer and laughing all the way past the gas pump.
But is it really cheaper to ride a horse than drive a car these days?
Would it be practical?
Is it even legal?
Read on.
A decent trail horse costs between $700 and $1,500 these days, said Ken Meyer of Sunset Stables, located just over Grandad Bluff east of La Crosse.
A decent car will set you back much more than that, but you can find a beater in that price range.
If you're accustomed to a pickup or an SUV, consider a draft horse. Meyer said it'll cost you $1,000 or more.
You'd think horse fuel also would be cheaper. Feed and hay will set you back between $150 and $160 a month, assuming you don't have a pasture, Meyer said.
Gas is running about $2.59 a gallon on average in Wisconsin, according to the AAA Fuel Gauge report. If your car gets an average of 20 miles per gallon and you drive 12,000 miles a year, that's $1,554 a year for gas, or $129.50 a month. Three oil changes will set you back another $75 during the year.
Maintenance for the vehicle is a crapshoot. If you go with an older used car, budget $125 a month for maintenance and repairs, according to SafeCarGuide.com.
Horse maintenance will set you back about $500 a year, said Meyer. That includes veterinary visits, shots and horseshoes.
You can't keep a horse in La Crosse, Onalaska or Holmen, though West Salem allows them with an annual permit in an outlying district.
And even if you live where they're allowed, a horse can't live in your driveway. Boarding the horse will cost you between $90 to $120 a month for pasture, or $200 to $300 a month to rent space in a barn.
If you've got land in the country, that'll cost you something, too, for property taxes.
Insurance is where you really clean up with a horse. Meyer said horse insurance costs between $60 and $90 a year. According to Wisconsin's insurance commissioner, the average annual auto premium is $613.81.
A horse, of course, needs accessories. A cheap nylon saddle will set you back $150 to $250, and leather saddles start at $300.
Then there's the diapers. Assuming you don't want to carry a shovel with you, you'll want a bag to catch the road apples. That's another $80.
Now that you've got a horse, is it legal to ride it into town?
Despite ordinances against keeping horses in town, riding them in town seems to be legal. La Crosse police couldn't find a law against it.
Onalaska City Clerk Cari Burmaster said they can't stop an Amish buggy from using city streets, however, regular horse-riding could become a traffic issue.
But once you're at work or the store, what about the horse?
If you work and shop in Cashton, Viroqua and Westby, you're in luck. Meyer said several businesses in those communities accommodate Amish buggies with hitching rails.
There aren't any in-town stables for horse parking, so you'd be on your own.
"Towns really aren't set up for that," said Meyer. "Maybe you could park it back in the marsh someplace."
Totalling up just the ongoing operation costs of a car versus a horse, it appears the horse is cheaper than the car, but largely because of care maintenance and insurance costs.
Gas for your car is still cheaper than feed for a horse.
Reid Magney can be reached at (608) 791-8211
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The Amish still use carriages. You may be able to find information in an Amish area and even buy some of the parts you need.
http://www.mcinnisindustries.com/buggy_nf.html
http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1974_November_December/Our_Alternative_Transportation__Horse_and_Buggy_
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

That's exactly what I was going to suggest. I don't know where you live, but if you're anywhere near an Amish community, I'll bet you could find what you're looking for. There are large Amish communities in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania; Geauga County, Ohio; and Holmes County, Ohio. There are many others as well, but those are the ones I'm familiar with. About two months ago, I visited the Amish community in Geauga County, Ohio, in Middlefield and surrounding towns. I saw several horse-drawn buggies up close, and they are much smaller than I realized. I do have to warn you that there have been several highly publicized, serious accidents between gasoline-powered cars and horse-drawn buggies. Of course, the passengers in the buggies are the ones most seriously hurt or killed. These accidents occurred in the Amish towns, where the buggies are a familiar sight, and other residents know they should slow down when they approach a buggy. If you do decide to go ahead with your plans, I do hope everyone in your town knows enough to drive very carefully when approaching your vehicle.
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First I would make sure that you can legally drive that horse into that town and park it at the store.
Here in Canada there is a guy in the Maritimes fighting a community that doesn't want him coming into town on horseback and riding the horse through the drive through of the local Tim Hortons.
Instead of getting a camera crew out and taping him buying his double double and having the corporation turning it into a commercial the local manager has pressed charges against the individual because of the horse patties that get left behind.
I believe the horse owner has been to court once and is fighting for his right to ride the horse into town.
Out here in Alberta if my feeble mind is correct we had a similar situation some years ago of someone who wanted to ride his horse into the closest town and would tie it up to a parking meter while he went into a pub for a beer.
GOOD LUCK.... I think it would be interesting if someone took their car or van and hitched it up to a team of horses and went for a ride into town on the freeways.... just like people had to do in the depression.
Perhaps you might consider just gutting an old hulk of everything that's not necessary......That would make more of an impression than a cute looking or quaint horse drawn vehicle.
How about an old 1960 Volkswagen beetle. or Chevy Bel Air.
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wrote:

My town has a few regulars that RIDE their horse into town, and there is a hitching post by the feed mill, which is a few blocks from the downtown. I know most of the cops, and they would not be bothered if I used that same hitching post. This is just a small rural town.
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Wooooo Hooooo...... Sounds like you have it made in the shade.
Take pictures as the project develops and post to a website.
Please and thank you.
I'm sure that many in this group would be interested in following your project right up to the first trip to town and that hitching post.
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What a weird community. Aren't there any gardeners in the town?
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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

Could have been $1.15, but I thought it was $1.37 based on a couple of fact that I am sure of. That was in PA. I dont recall if is was the state or Federal minimum.[/quote:e3082d6ab9] .10 because I was under 18).

.37 based on a couple of

The thing is it is quite a while ago and I for one havent a clue as to the cost of fuel was when I was paid about au $11.00 in 1959. But the Fuel Companies would know! Wouldnt they be trumpeting it from the rooftops if the cost of fuel was substantially less today? The other factor is that petroleum has a finite source - doesnt this mean that cost will increase exponentially the further we get into this Century? Isnt it logical that we should be using smaller H.P. vehicles with more efficient engines? Perhaps a greater fee on registration as the H.P. is increased?
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Near as I can find, the history of min wage and months it kicked in.
Month / Year Minimum Hourly Wage October 1938 $0.25 October 1939 $0.30 October 1945 $0.40 January 1950 $0.75 March 1956 $1.00 September 1961 $1.15 September 1963 $1.25 February 1967 $1.40 February 1968 $1.60 May 1974 $2.00 January 1975 $2.10 January 1976 $2.30 January 1978 $2.65 January 1979 $2.90 January 1980 $3.10 January 1981 $3.35 April 1990 $3.80 April 1991 $4.25 October 1996 $4.75 September 1997 $5.15
YK
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Tough point to get across. People just remember that it is higher today than last week. I'm not sure big oil would be seen in a favorable light in any case.

The oil is free. The cost of getting is is what fluctuates and increases as the "easy' well are dried up and we have to find new, harder to reach, sources. Supply and demand also are big factors. I'm sure the cost will increase considerably down the road though.

Makes sense. There is a "gas guzzler" tax in place, but that is usually for expensive luxury cars, not the every day working man's car. If the cost of a $75,000 Jaguar increases by $1200, it is not a big deal to the person that can easily afford that kind of car. It probably should be tightened up so the big pickups and SUVs are hit with it. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml Trucks are exempt right now. I can see that for the tradesman that really needs a truck to haul his material, but for hte mom taking junior to kindergarten in a Navigator, different scenario.
More research should be done on other fuels, hybrids, solar power etc.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

That plus it doesn't matter...in actuality it isn't "big oil" setting the price as much as it is speculation-driven markets that are the factor. Of course, the conditions to support such market forces are those of increasing worldwide demand in conjunction w/ inflexible production increases (especially in the US both in production and refining) and fears of instability in many of the major production areas of the world.

To a small extent of the total the cost of exploration and production are increasing yes. As noted, most of the driving forces for recent price increases are on the demand side coupled w/ the world situation. In actuality, I expect a significant reduction after a few years or so as production is finally ramped up as I expect the constricting regulations to be <finally> relaxed.

Well, it's been shown to be more economically advantageous to let market forces be the driving factor for the most part. It will be very interesting to observe the effect of an artificial cap on retail gasoline prices in HI--I'm expecting they will soon be finding that they're going to be waiting in line and rationing as a result, a la the '70s.
When Mom gets tired of spending the $$ for the vehicle she's currently driving she'll either quite driving so much or get a different vehicle, or both. Government won't need to do anything except stay out of the way. The problem is that regulation and activists have prevented enhanced production on both the exploration and the refining side for so long that it there hasn't been any increase in total refining capacity in nearly 30 years (that's generalization, I'd have to go look up actual data, but it's valid generalization).

As if there isn't? When it becomes economically competitive other forms will come into play. Increasing use of biofuels will ease a small fraction in the short term...
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Normally, I'd agree 100%, but the auto industry needs a little nudge once in a while. Or the consumer needs more education. You don't what your great grandson to run out of oil just because my grandson drives a SuperNavigator8AllTrack with the high performance package. Frankly, I like a car with lots of goodies and power everything, but it does not have to be huge to have those features.

So far we have not seen the exodus like in the 70's when the Pinto was bringing a premium price. Maybe $3.00 is n ot high enough for people to make a switch.

No only that, they stand in the way of wind farms that can save energy.

Research proves it can be done, but more is needed to get manufacturing and installation costs in line. With a bigger push and demands from consumers, it may happen. So far, the public still stays away from solar not only because of initial cost, but because they just don't know enough about it. Home construction has improved in the past 30 years, but we have the technology to cut energy cost in half, but people are either not aware or are afraid to do something different. Education of the public and builders is important but lagging. I see this every day with some of our customers. www.polysteel.com www.integraspec.com Right now, about 4.5% of the houses are built this way, but it can easily be more and energy efficient.
I include myself in some of this. My next car will probably get better mileage, but I'm still leery of getting a hybrid and the potential of expensive battery cost down the road 5 or 8 years. Ed
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

My feeling is it is inevitable and we'll cope better in the long run w/o excessive intervention. My thinking is that sponsorship of basic research is fine but invoked implementation almost always is more fraught w/ unforseen consequences than otherwise. While it's going to be painful in the pocketbook for a while, I think it's the better way to fly (so to speak)...
I guess we'll get a read on how great the actual demand-driven vs speculation-driven cost increases are (my thinking is it currently is more the latter than the former) w/ what happens in HI.

Doesn't seem to be making much of a major impact so far, anyway. Of course, in rural areas where it's still 60 miles between one anywhere and another, that isn't likely to get any closer and it's not likely there will be another JD dealer opening in the smaller burg to make the trip to the larger unnecessary, either.

So far, that's seems to be the majority. Energy awareness is up some but so far education hasn't been very successful w/ the crowd that wants more "stuff" but fewer ways to make it...
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/opinion/23tierney.html
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No doubt it will rise, but it's unlikely to be exponential. To say it will rise exponentially would be to say that an equation:
price = (A * time)^ B
where A and B are constants. would correctly describe the price. Thats not likely.
The price of petrolium will rise until it equals some different (and renewable) energy source and will then stabilize and perhaps drop some as the cost of providing the other energy source is reduced through improved technology. Does that mean that most automobiles in the world will be obsolete and replaced in 15 years? Sure, but history shows that happens anyway.
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False premise. We know how to synthesize petroleum, out of municipal waste streams, with a positive energy budget. (IOW, you get more energy out in the form of oil than it takes to convert the mulicipal waste).
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