How difficult is it to "build" a door?

Page 3 of 4  
Puddin' Man wrote:

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorInside07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorInside07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorInside07-2012003.jpg
I think that with the added information and the additional photos that you provided, I am starting to get a better idea of what you have now, what you want to do, and what your options may be.
From the photos above, I can see that you are correct that the door hinges are just attached directly to the double 2x4's that make up the door frame.
Also, you are concerned that because it is so hot where you are, you were thinking maybe you could make a new door in the basement rather than repairing the door in the heat. However, I think that whether you build a new door, buy a replacement door, or repair the existing door, you will need to spend some time installing or fixing the door in the heat -- or you could wait for cooler weather.
You also said that you are not too concerned about aesthetics as long as the door works.
Option 1) If you decide to buy a new 32x80 door, I think you could install it even if it is 1.75 inches thick. Here's why. If one looks at these photos that you provided before:
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoor06-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorCU06-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorCUII06-2012002.jpg , the trim that is around the door on the outside (I forget what it is called) could probably easily be carefully removed and then moved out toward the outside another half inch and tacked back in place. That would let your new door be flush on the inside and the moved trim will make it flush with the trim on the outside. If you do this option, buy a wood or fiberglass door so you can trim it to size to fit the opening if the opening is not quite square.
Option 2) Do what others said and try re-screwing and re-gluing things in place to try to get and keep the sag out. It's an old door, and I'm not sure how well that will work, but it might.
Option 3) Leave the door where it is, but put a shim or two under it and along the side to get the sag out so it will be secured in place the way you want it. When doing that add some glue -- not sure what type, maybe exterior waterproof Locktite or something like that -- and re-glue the seams etc. Then, with the door closed, shimmed, not sagging, and secured in place (while the glue is drying), screw a piece of plywood onto the bottom half of the door from the inside. I think 1/4-inch plywood would be strong enough. The plywood would be cut to fit the bottom half of the door only, and maybe do a cut-out in the plywood so that it goes around the doorknob. Screw the plywood into the cross rails (or whatever they are called) and the two vertical side rails. The purpose of the plywood is just to provide cross-bracing so the door cannot shift out of square and sag again. The same effect could be achieved by putting diagonal angle braces on the inside of the door on the lower half, but I think a solid piece of plywood will look better and work better. The plywood will keep the door from shifting from a rectangle into a parallelogram. Then, of course, paint the plywood.
If it were me, I would do option 3, at least for now.
Good luck.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thanks for pretty much sorting all that out.

Think about it. The old 1.25" door is on a true 1.25" hinge. If I mount the hinge on the back of a 1.75" door, will the other side of the door even clear the jamb (actually the pair of 2x4's)?

This is looking more likely all the time. Check back tomorrow or the next day. :-)

I tried something similar months ago. Shimmed the door up as far as it would go, then mounted plate steel reinforcers on the back of door secured with deck screws. It helped for a while, then sagged back. It would hold better with big piece of ply, but likely would add too much weight, door and/or hinges might not take it well.

'Tis a work in progress. I'll report back.
Thanks, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If it doesn't clear the jamb, then I guess per his instructions that's why he said to buy a wood one so that you can trim it.
I know you don't want to hear it. But for the peanut gallery, some would say what you just pointed out is another advantage of a pre-hung door. It's hinged, fits correctly, is perfecty square, and will clear the jamb when you open it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Obviously, I'm not standing inside your garage, but when I "think about it", I don't think about using the existing hinges, I think about using the correct hinges for a standard door thickness.
You have stops on the exterior. The face of the exterior of any thickness door is going to still hit those stops when the door is closed. If the door is 1.75" thick or 4" thick, the exterior face is not going to move. It will be the face of the *interior* of a thicker door that will simply extend further into the garage.
If you do not have room on the 2 x 4 framing (To avoid any more confusion, I would not call that a jamb) for wider hinges to mount, scab an extension onto the interior face of the framing to extend it into the room. Use glue and screws to secure the extension.
Your other option is to remove the exterior stops and move them outward so that the interior face of the door stays within the existing framing.
I can't view the photos from the machine I'm currently on, so If I'm missing something major here, I apologize. If I recall correctly, the exterior stops are just some strips of wood nailed to the framing. Pry them off, hang the new/used thicker door and reinstall (or replace with narrower) stops in proper location.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I think what he's worrying about is not the stops. It's the clearance when opening due to increased thickness. Imagine a 1" door hung in a 6" wide door jamb, no stops. Let's further assume it just has minimum clearance on the side with no hinges so it opens without hitting. Now, make that door 3" thick without changing any other dimensions. While it will fit in the same opening, it will not open because as you open it, as it pivots, at some point the side without the hinges will hit the jamb due to the increased thickness
But, I don't understand why a guy that is proposing to build an entire door from scratch thinks this is a big deal. All you'd have to do is remove some material from the side or sides of the door to get the necessary clearance. As I pointed out and I think you agree with, this is another example of an advantage of a pre-hung door.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

OK, now I'm missing something. Maybe it's that whole "spatial reasoning" thing.
If the exterior face of the door is up against the stops, why does it matter how thick the slab is? As soon as the door begins to open, the slab begins to move away from the frame/jamb.
Take a look at the interior of any closed door near where you are are. Imagine screwing a 4 x 4 to the interior face along the lockset edge. Now you have really thick "door", right?
How is that extra thickness on the interior side going to prevent the door from opening?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Use 3 envelopes to see the geometry. Put one on a table, facing the long way. That's will represent the left side of the jamb. Leave a gap to the right of that envelope the width of an envelope and put down the second envelope. So now you have the door opening between those two envelopes.
Now use the short side of the third envelope to represent the door. Position it so that it's in the opening, tight, all the envelopes are just touching. You will see that if the "door" only extends into the opening a little bit, when you pivot it to represent opening, it only takes a little clearance for the far side of the door on the side opposite the hinges to clear the opening. Now move the door envelope so it's way inside the other two envelopes that represent the door opening. Try pivoting it again, the same way to represent opening. Unless you increase the size of the opening, the far side of the "door" on the side away from the hinges will hit the door opening.
The extent of the issue depends on the geometry. For the small change in door thickness he's talking about, it could very well be so small that the door will still open. But if it hits, then all that's needed is to remove maybe 1/8" of material from the side.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I don't have any envelopes present, but I do have a door.
To state my "attach a 4 x 4" example in a simpler way, try this:
Stand on the side of a door that opens in. "Thicken" the door by placing your hand on the interior face on the non-hinge side, essentially forcing the interior face of the door (the back of your hand) further into the room, beyond the jamb.
Now open the door, towards you, of course. now close the door.
Did any part of the door or your hand ever touch the inside of the jamb? I think not. Don't see how it could.
If you replace a 1.25" door with a 1.75" door so that the extra 1/2" is inside the room - and hinge it correctly - how is anything on the non-hinge side going to hit the jamb?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Of course it would because the door is PIVOTING, not coming straight out. The back side of that 4x4 would hit the door jamb and that would be it. As soon as the door starts to pivot, the back of the side without the hinges moves slightly to the right. It's just a fraction of an inch, but the clearance between door and jamb must allow for it. So, if you had just enough clearance for a 1.5" door and you put in say a 3" door, it would hit and not open.

It hits because the door does not open straight out. If the door came straight out on both sides, then the door would clear with just a tiny gap, say 1/64". But it pivots on an angle bringing the backside on the side away from the hinges closer to the door opening. And the thicker the door the further to the side the far side of the door will be before it clears the edge of the jamb.
Imagine you were moving a bed that is 6 inches thick through a doorway, in the same position as a door would be, ie vertical. The bed is only 1/8 inch narrower all the way around than the door opening. Positioned perfectly straight, in the plane of the opening, it goes through, right?
Now when the bed is fully inside the opening and just about to come out the other side, what happens if you try to rotate the bed slightly? The door hits the sides of the openings. Now imagine if the bed were only 1" thick. The same thing would happen but it would hit the sides less when rotated. That is the effect I think he's talking about and it does require more clearance side to side the thicker the door.
There might be enough extra space in his case that going from 1.25" to 1.75" it still works. But figuring out if there is or not apparently has him in a knot. I prefer to avoid the drama, which is why a pre-hung works for me :)
You can also use credit cards to do the simulation instead of envelopes.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

You have absolutely lost me. Maybe we aren't looking at the door in the same way.
Let's get our orientation correct:
"the back of the side without the hinges"
To me this means:
I am standing inside of a room. The lockset (L) is on my left, the hinges (H) are on my right. The door opens towards me, thus I can see the pin side of the hinges (HP) If I grab the door handle and pull, the door will open in towards me, exposing the edge of the door which we are calling the "thickness"
If this picture posts correctly, the L for lockset is located in the area that you refer to as "the back of the side without the hinges".
--------- | | | HP | | |L | | HP | | ---------
Is that correct?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

This is the point upon which our thoughts differ. I was going to respond to your other post about my hand experiment being wrong, but I wanted to wait until the GG delay passed and you had a chance to read the above description. As long as we are looking at this from the same vantage point, we can go on.
Take a look at this picture:
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorInside07-2012003.jpg
We are looking at "the back of the side without the hinges", correct? ( I can't access these pictures at work so I couldn't post that earlier)
OK, so we are looking at the interior face of the door. It appears to be flush with the edge of framing, so let's call it so.
We can also assume that the exterior face of the door is up against the exterior stops and can go no further "forward" i.e. away from where we're standing.
You are standing 3 feet from the door - don't move.
I am now going to hang a 1/2" thicker door, making sure that the exterior face is up against the exterior stops as before.
How far from the door are you now? 2 feet 11 1/2 inches, right?
The interior face has moved back into the room, extending beyond the framing.
Since all of the extra material is inside the room, how is it going to prevent the door from opening?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Because the distance from the pivot point to the back outside edge is greater than that from the pivot point to the inside edge.
Good god, man, have you never beveled a door edge???
--

dadiOH
____________________________
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

:-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Heck, I could have built AND hung at least 10.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Hi, Indeed. Lot of people think time is not money.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I would have hung all overheads!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No. I believe from his photos the door opens into the garage. The hinges are on the door inside the garage and that is what we're looking at in the above picture.

Well, yeah if you somehow hang the door with the extra thickness so that instead of being inside the door jambs, as it should be, the extra part sticks out into the garage. But I would hope that is not how you'd hang a door.

That only works IF you put the extra thickness on the hinge side, with the thickness sticking out into the room. And then the hinges would wind up mounted not where they normally are, ie at the edge of the door, but instead the pivot point would be back toward the middle of the door. It sure would look bizarre. The door is supposed to sit inside the door opening, not extend beyond it.
Instead of looking at his door, just look at a how you deal with a door in general. Use some credit cards to simulate the opening and the door.
Or how about this. Visualize a 2 x 4 laying flat. Imagine taking a saw, cutting out a 2 foot section in the middle. Now, I can slide that middle section out if I just pull it straight out, like a plug. But that isn't how a door works. It has to pivot. What happens if I try to pivot it and open it like a door would open in a doorway? It won't open, because it needs CLEARANCE. When you try to pivot it, it hits. How far apart would you have to move the other 2 x 4 pieces to make the opening larger so it could pivot? Quite a ways, because the 2 x 4 is 3.5" deep into the opening.
Now simulate a narrow door, by making the middle piece less deep, only 1/2" deep. Now you could make the opening much smaller and the middle piece would still have room to pivot. In other words, the thicker the door the wider the opening must be for it to clear.
Again, if he's adding only 1/2", then there may be enough extra clearance already that it won't matter.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
DerbyDad03 wrote:

a square + b square = c square.
a = width b = thickness c = hypotenuse
--

dadiOH
____________________________
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Or bevel it which is SOP.
--

dadiOH
____________________________
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Puddin' Man wrote:

If, because the door is 1.75" instead of 1.25", it hits the jamb/frome/whatever, you would have to trim it or plane it a little to make it fit.

Okay.
I have done this before and it does work. You could probably even use a piece of luan. It's the big square piece that prevents the sagging. Smaller pieces -- like pieces of metal -- put too much stress on the small area of the small piece of metal and probably didn't work for that reason. In fact, I'd bet that you could put a large square of sheet metal instead of the plywood or luan and it would work. The wieight of any of these will be minimal and I think it will solve your problem.

Okay. Good luck.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.