Home Depot: Ask 3 People, Get 3 Different Answers

[DerbyDad03]

What's a consumer to do? Their own research, obviously!

I've got a few areas around the rim joist in my basement that could use some more insulation. I stopped by the contractor's desk at Home Depot and asked whether I should use faced or unfaced batts.

The guy asked if I was going to cover it and I said no. He said code says to use unfaced since the paper facing is flammable. That made sense, so I headed over to the insulation aisle. As I grabbed a roll of unfaced batts, a different HD staff member asked me if I needed any help.

Me: "Sure, I'm insulating my rim joist bays. I'll be leaving it exposed. Should I use faced or unfaced?"

Him: "You should used faced if you're leaving it exposed."

Me: "Really? That's the exact opposite of what the guy at the contractor's desk told me. How am I supposed to know who to believe?"

Him: "You should believe me since this is my department. The guy behind the contractor's desk works in hardware."

Me: "You know what? I think I'll do my own homework and then come back and get what I think is right."

On the way out, I stopped back at the contractor's desk and told him that a guy who says "It's his department" gave me the opposite answer.

Another employee happened to be walking by at the time and he said "Let's ask Ed, Ed will know." Now, I kind of know Ed, he's been there a long time and has helped me in the past.

Ed's answer: "It doesn't matter. The facing is just there for stapling, so use whatever you want." When the other guy brought up the code issue and the flammability of the paper, Ed said "I don't know anything about there being a code related to insulating the rim joist. I've seen it done both ways."

So there you go: 3 different answers from 3 different Home Depot employees. Maybe I'll stop by Lowes and see how many different answers I can get from them. ;-)

BTW the Owens Corning website agrees with the first guy that I spoke to. I printed out the page and plan to show it to the guy who said "Faced." and "Believe me. It's my department."

*** Begin Included Text ***

- For the band joist, use unfaced cut-to-fit pieces of insulation and place them snugly into the space.

- Kraft paper facing is flammable and cannot be left exposed. An interior finish material, such as drywall, should be installed as soon as the insulation is in place.

*** End Included Text ***

[jim]

Just another example of what low pay gets you . Retail were to pay better then you might get better people course you may have to pay more .

[David Nebenzahl]

On 1/1/2011 2:47 PM jim spake thus:

[snip]

Right. Plus more training (which costs the employer more up front but pays off big time thereafter).

[aemeijers]

IMHO, in that particular application it doesn't matter a hill of beans one way or the other, seeing as how it is surrounded by bare wood and all. The additional heat load from that 1.5 sq ft of paper lighting off will likely be irrelevant, since if the cavity is that hot, the plywood above will probably ignite anyway.

And yes, I've seen it done both ways, often in the same basement. It is usually done with leftover scraps just sort of shoved in there, far from an exact fit. It would have to be a very anal inspector to gig somebody for it.

(One of these days I really gotta get down there and fuss with mine, since I know several of them are out of place. Also need to caulk or foam the sill plate crack while I am in the neighborhood anyway.)

[DerbyDad03]

Just an FYI...I don't have plywood. It's all 1 x 6 T&G subfloor.

[Jeff Thies]

I'm shocked, just shocked that you got 3 employees at HD to answer a question. OTH, I'm not shocked that the advice was bad.

Jeff

[benick]

I'm more shocked he didn't check out the manufacturer's website or calling the CEO BEFORE going to HD and expecting an answer to a CODE question...

[Steve Barker]

just call the spray foam guy and have it done in a manner that will help. The fiberglass in those areas is worthless.

[aemeijers]

Not as good as spray foam, but not worthless. And 'the spray foam guy' is damn expensive, unless you have other areas that need foam, and he is out there and set up anyway. I can tell which joist bays need attention just by walking along the basement wall with my hand on the suspended ceiling tile. The ones with missing or loose batts in the cavity are much colder.

I do like that industrial-size-applicator spray foam stuff though. If I hit the lotto and build my dream house, that is definitely what I will go with.

[mike]

Why does this surprise you? It's just statistics. Take a pencil and paper. Draw a Bell-shaped curve. No matter what criteria you measure, If you get enough samples, the distribution shape will approximate that curve. Here's where it gets interesting. According to the curve, fully half of us are below average at whatever you're measuring. And the average person is TOTALLY INCOMPETENT at whatever you're measuring. That's not my opinion, it's MATH. People who know what they're doing are squeezed WAY, WAY off to the right, WAY, WAY down in that tiny little space...both of them are there. Finding someone who knows what they're doing and can communicate that to you and has the inclination to do so is nearly impossible.

You don't even want to think about what's going on at the other end of the curve.

This is annoying when you go to Home Depot. Nobody competent works there. And it's not just Home Depot...it's everywhere. There simply are not enough competent people to go around.

That curve also describes the competence of your doctor...where it's life or death...for you. Sleep on that...if you can...

How about the drunk guy flying your airplane....or the guy sleeping in his chair at the controls of the nuclear power plant?

And this is only the part about people who try to do good. There are lots of people with malice who INTEND to do harm. Fortunately, most of them are incompetent at what they do.

We're lucky we're not already extinct...but that may change this century...we're working really hard at it.

Got insomnia yet?

[Robert Neville]

That was the problem. My last house I had built I really wanted to use spray foam throughout. Unfortunately, the cost delta was so huge the payback would have been over a decade. Ended up doing spray cellulose in the walls, spray fiberglass in the ceiling and bats under the floor joists. Very happy with how that tuned out for the walls and ceiling, no so happy with the floor. Ended up going back and TigerFoaming the coldest corner of the house.

[DerbyDad03]

rote:

I didn't "expect an answer to a code question".

Show me where in any of my posts I asked about code. Are you so enamored with disagreeing with me that you need to make stuff up?

[benick]

I didn't "expect an answer to a code question".

Show me where in any of my posts I asked about code. Are you so enamored with disagreeing with me that you need to make stuff up?

Whether to use faced or unfaced when exposed is a code question...Some places don't care others do...

[HeyBub]

Not EVERYTHING is bell-shaped. And your notion of "average" is not exactly correct. Your example of drunk pilots is an example. According to you, there are just a few teetotaling pilots and a few who are almost unconscious. The middle of your graph would show a varying number of drinks before take-off.

Not so. Virtually all pilots, including private ones, observe the rule of "eight hours from bottle to throttle."

A further example, assume ten people take a test where nine get perfect scores and one gets a zero. The "average" of all test takers is 90 and the majority scored above average! (The median score would be 100.)

The same holds true for the "average" driver. Most people are "above average" in that it only takes a few terrible drivers to skew the result.

Consider IQ. For females, there are a few who are as dumb as a crate of anvils and a few who are brilliant. The vast majority are "average." A graph would look like a spike from low to 100 which would continue for some time, then another spike from 100 to 180. For males, there are a few who have dirt for brains and a few who are outstanding. But the line slopes pretty evenly from low to high. That is, the graph goes from low to 180 uniformly.

Tests on both males and females would show the same "average" (90-110), but more males would be above average than females (and more below average). This sort-of shows why there are more male great (fill in the blank) than women and also demonstrates why there are more males locked away.

[Steve Barker]

We had about 150' of rim joists filled with foam for about $300. It's not so bad when you figger you don't have to spend a whole day messing with fiberglass.

[mike]

10 samples is NOT a large number. There are over 6 billion of us. Try a larger sample. You are nitpicking the details and ignoring the point...which you illustrate admirably. VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE IN THAT TAIL OFF THE HIGH END OF THE PEAK YOU FIND AT THE HIGH END OF THE COMPETENCE CURVE. A high IQ doesn't imply competence. In fact, I've found high IQ people to be so self absorbed they can't even communicate all that wonderfulness that's going on in their brain. It's much easier to deal with the dummies in the 130's.

I was once married to a genius. She graduated top of her class, could recall facts, was killer at scrabble. I frustrated her at bridge, cause it was obvious to her exactly who had which cards...and I didn't. I just wanted to drink, talk and enjoy the game.

Problem was she did not have a practical bone in her body. Daily life created frustrations.

She was a technically skilled piano player. I bought her a Dave Brubeck song book. She could play it instantly. You could calibrate the GPS system with the technical rendition of Dave's weird timings. Problem was that it sounded nothing like Dave Brubeck, no feeling whatsoever...but the timing was spot on. That observation was lost on her. But she did take offense at the criticism ;-)

Smart don't make you useful. A good mentor at every stage of your life is what makes you useful. And since there are so few good mentors, most of us end up useless. And working at Home Depot.

[willshak]

DerbyDad03 wrote the following:

Before I go to HD or Lowes, or any other store to buy anything, I usually know what I want to buy. If I have to ask an employee a question, it is only to ask what aisle it is in.

[clare]

I've always favoured un-faced rock-wool batts for ANY basement use as it will not support mold, will not absorb water, and is 100% fire-proof.

For rhe band/rim joist area of my daughter's basement, we used rigid styrofoam (sm) (2 - 4 inches) finished with rock-wool. Thr basement is being finished, but the rim-joist area is open to the suspended ceiling, so we still wanted.needed it to be fire resistant.

[clare]

Actually, the retired plumber working in the plumbing department od the local Home Despot actually DOES know his plumbing - and his products. And he's very personable along with being knowlegeable. Too bad he's about the only one that meets both requirements.

[clare]

Most of my flying friends it's 12 hours.