GFI Outlet

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On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:46:50 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney

It will be required to be on an AFCI tho and that has 30ma GFCI protection. That short in your compressor that you have been dealing with will still trip the AFCI
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wrote:

I don't see anything requiring a dwelling refrigerator, in a kitchen, to be afci protected. Where are you finding it?
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You are right. in a dwelling unit kitchen you only have to protect the receptacles serving the countertop. My mistake, sorry for any confusion. I have been in commercial since the 2008. They stopped building houses ;-(
BTW it is strange that you also don't need AFCIs or GFCIs on any receptacles in the kitchen that don't serve the countertop. I bet someone plugged that loophole in the 2011. I will have to look at the ROP when I get a minute. The draft is out too.
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On 9/10/2009 6:38 PM snipped-for-privacy@aol.com spake thus:

As you know, it all ultimately depends on the inspector. A friend of mine had to install GFCIs in his remodeled kitchen even in some remote outlets not on the countertop; one was under an island (no sink nearby), the other was a wall outlet.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

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spake thus:

It only depends on the inspector within the realm of the requirements. He can not unilaterally allow or disallow anything that is specced in either the NEC, NFPA or local code ordnances etc.. GFCI's are either required in some locatiosn or they are not. Any inspector who sees it otherwise should be reported so he can be removed from his job. The inspector is NEVER the one who interprets the code: that's why there are committees to decide/implement local requirements and even those must still be done within the confines of the NEC etc. NEC, NFPA and so on are MINIMUM requirements and often locall communities will clarify or add to those requirements, but they cannot remove an NEC requirement for, say, 3-prong receptacles or anything else. They can only ADD TO the NEC per its permitted modifications statements.
HTH,
Twayne`
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:19:32 -0400, "Twayne"

Florida has a uniform building code statewide with no local amendments. That doesn't mean you don't have different opinions about what it says. A quick peek at the IAEI Florida yacking group and you can see the arguments. Going to an IAEI meeting is sure to open your eyes about how inspectors do their job. The organization tries to get uniformity among members but there are plenty of AHJs who don't confer with their neighbors or join the trade groups. Any builder will tell you the rules change as you move between jurisdictions.
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:19:32 -0400, "Twayne"

The inspector IS the one who interprets the code. He doesn't write it, but it is his reading of the code that he enforces. Two inspectors in the same city may differe significantly in what they allow or dissalow in some particular instances.
My Dad was an electrician for many years, and he got to know what each inspector in the area wanted to see. If he knew which inspector he was going to be dealing with, he could be sure he was not going to get any defects. What satisfied one would rub the other the wrong way, and vise versa.

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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

that's when it's time to do some serious documentation, and go have a sit down pow wow with the city manager. get them boys on the same page or get rid of 'em.
s
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:25:08 -0500, Steve Barker

Not city. Ontario Hydro.
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spake thus:

They DO, but it's not their job to. They in theory all should inspect/pass the same things every time. They can only interpret where the local zoning/code office has failed to clarify. Anything else and they are deficient in their duties. They are "inspectors", not "interpretors". They are NOT free to interpret a case that is covered in the local code enforcement's rulings unless it is specifically spelled out to be dependent on certain things which way accept/deny goes. I know they still do it, but the first one I see doing it and I know he's wrong is in for some rude surprises.

That's "yesterday" and went on a lot. It still does to a degree but it's a lot less than it used to be. And if it happens, the inspector has to write up his findings and WHY his decision keeps the code. I had a neighbor with an inspector that didn't like conduit changing to Romex at one of the boxes; wasn't familiar with the new Romex connectors I used and had never seen one. Since I did the wiring, I knew exactly how it had been done. It only took one trip to the code enforcement office to get it fixed. That's where I decided "never again under my watch".
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In most cases, it is far easier and cheaper to do what they want, no matter what the code. I'd rather spend $30 to put the two GFCI in the counter than to piss off everyone at town hall and have to spend many times that to prove I'm right. If you piss of the electric inspector you will probably get a tough time from the plumbing and building inspectors too. Choose your battles carefully
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

Keyword here is OUTSIDE.

You keep talking about winding insulation. We are talking about surge(spike)

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A balanced surge on the hot returning on the neutral will have no effect on the GFCI. Only if it leaks to ground will it trip a GFCI.
Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

Hi, You are talking theory, in real life out in the field, theory does not stand always. After all I spent half a century working around this kinda stuffs. After all nothing is PERFECT in this world.
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Fine, nothing is PERFECT. The sensing coil in the particular GFCI unit may be slightly out of balance, so that instead of just responding to the differential current, it responds very slightly to the total current. Or the appliance may have a small ground fault and have excessive leakage current. Either way, if the GFCI trips on a repated basis, something is defective and should be replaced.
Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

Hi, Of course. I can trip GFCI in my house with slight RFI if I want to. We have to figure out to keep it from false tripping by design improvement like implementing micro processor or ASIC, I mean using AI or fuzzy logic?
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

Yes, replaced with a standard outlet if it is feeding a motored appliance.
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If the appliance is tripping a non-defective GFCI, then it is measurably less safe than an appliance which does not trip a GFCI. So if the receptacle location is not required to have a GFCI under the NEC, and you don't mind the extra safety risk, go ahead and do that.
Cheers, Wayne
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:19:29 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney

Less safe only in that it is not protected against ground faults. The device itself may have absolutely no safety issues, and still trip the GFCI.
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:38:02 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney

Something is not RIGHT - but it may not have any ground fault - and the GFCI may be to spec. Everything may be working according to it's design - therefore NO FAULT. Just a design incompatability.
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