Maybe I need a bigger sump pump, so at the Ace Hardware, I looked at the boxes.
If I get a Wayne pump, I can get a
1/3 HP that pumps 3800 GPH, or a
1/2 HP " " 4200 GPH, or a
3/4 HP " " 4500 GPH.
With ACE brand, I can get a
1/3 HP that pumps 3300 GPH, or a
1/2 HP " " 3600 GPH, and maybe they make a 1/2 HP but I didn't see it.
So a 50% increase in the power of the motor yields only about a 10% increase in GPH. The next 50% yields a 7% increase with Wayne.
With ACE, 50% increase yields a 9% increase in GPH.
Why is this?
Once in the 31 years I've been here I've needed a bigger pump -- because the pump was working full blast and still couldn't keep up with the water coming into the sump from outside** -- and 3 of these pumps are bigger than my current 1/3 HP, but i'm discouraged from buying anything if I'm going to get so little increase.
**It just caused wet boxes (cardboard cartons) in the laundry room, for the nth time, and I don't even do anything anymore when this happens, but I would still like to have eveything working "right".
First thing I'd want to do, is to look at the discharge pipe. Is the pipe or tube large enough? The corrugated flex tubing makes for a LOT of water resistance. It's very possible that taking out the flex and put in some properly sized PVC might improve the flow through the pipe.
Second thing I'd do, is to confirm if there is a check valve in the system, and if the water is pumping out and coming back in.
The home repair radio show around here talks about gutters and grading. Is the water really going away from the foundation?
First, be sure they are all showing the ratings for the same circumstances (head or lift). As power goes up, the amount of water increases, but on a curve. Just as you car fuel mileage is not twice at
30 mph as it is at 60 mph.
I'd consider getting a second pump rather than a larger one. With redundancy, you always have some ability to move water if one fails. That is common practice in critical manufacturing operations. We may lose capacity, but we don't shut down.
**It just caused wet boxes (cardboard cartons) in the laundry room, for the nth time, and I don't even do anything anymore when this happens, but I would still like to have eveything working "right".
Which is confusing, because he also said that it only happened once in
31 years. But clearly there is at least laundry eqpt at risk. If there was at least one time where the current and presumably correctly functioning pump couldn't keep up, that suggests a pump is probably needed many times. If you have two, if one dies, you're still covered for probably 99%+ of occurances, the exceptions being thoser rare times when the additional capacity is really needed. For another $150 or so, sounds like money well spent for a second pump.
Having been through this in my previous life, I think, as other have said, grading is very important. If everything is very flat, downspouts and pump output, but be as far away as possible. I had one AC pump and one DC pump. The last BIG rain was huge. We had, and it was actually measured, 23" of rain in 36 hours, much of it coming at the end of the rain. My AC pump was running about 90% of the time. Each pump had a check valve and exited through a separate pipe. Once outside, a 4" pipe carried it downhill to the edge of my lot, about 36'. Also, in the corner where the sump was, the ground was pretty flat. So, that downspout needed to be taken as far away as possible. Luckily, it only covered a small part of the roof, so I put into that same 4" line. If there was ever too much water for the 4", it was not hard connected to the 3 source pipes, so it would just overflow. But it never did ... but that was after the BIG rain. During all this, the town sewers were backing up. I had a check valve on the sink, furnace condensate drain and washer drains. However, because the water backup starts slowly, the check valve remained relaxed and water continues to trickle under the flap. Once I emptied the sink (is was 1" from the top) the valve closed and the backup stopped. After this, I complained to the Village and they installed a whole house anti backflow unit at their expense ($5K). And, in the 5 years since I've been gone, they added extra capacity to the sewage lift station, about a block away, and added a huge backup generator.
A couple months ago, my Mom's sump kept flowing back in, each time it pumped. Hmm, clogged drain says me. A friend and I went a couple days later, and find the drain empty, flowing well, and didn't appear to be clogged. Perhaps the town's system was at capacity.
The backflow preventer at town's expense? So, where does the town get money? From you, the tax payer. Feel better now? Got some of your own money back.
If the home sits higher than the street, its time to install a gravity drain to daylight! Even if its a overflow drain to daylight, it would shine in a power outage.
I assumed the circs were the same. Same brand, same style box and laabling . If not the same circs, it's like they're trying to confuse me.
I appreciate your and others' actually addressing my question before giving me advice on things.
I certainly have. A base pump, or a battery operated pump. Just putting in a bigger pump wouldnt' solve power shortages, but otoh it's so easy to do, maybe an hour altogether.
Only once in 31 years has the sump pump not kept up with water entering the sump from the ground outside.
But there have been many other "floods", mostly in the early years, none more than an quarter of an inch in a small area and an eigth of an inch in a bigger one. All or at least most have been cured and won't happen again.
In no special order, the time the washing machine hose burst Replaced with stainless steel clad. the condensate tray for the AC overflowed, a lot Rerouted drain tube. It had worked for 10 years the original way. the water heater leaked, not noticed because of the condensate tray leak New water heater, added pan underneath, with drain to sump the polyethylene? tube to the humidifer developed a hole Replaced with copper. the tube to the toilet in powder room on 1st floor sprang a leak Just repaired. Didn't put stress on any connection. the laundry sink backed up when it rained a lot, 3 times I keep a stopper in it, and may put a ball valve in the drain. the hose to the kitchen sink on the first floor broke Used proper hose.
I'm sure there are a couple of causes I missed. I can never remember them all.
For months at a time, the pump doesn't run. For months more, water wouldn't reach the floor even if there were no pump, but since the pump level is set lower than the floor, it runs some times. (I raised the turn-on level 3 or 4 inches from where it was when I bought the house, and cut the running by about 75%.) And for some reason, there's never been a power failure when there was also a high water level. But it could happen.
Like I say, I've thought about base and battery. Ace Hardware also had two pumps connected already. I've never seen that in person before. I got so intrigrued by the question I asked that I didn't pay attention, but I'll check the web or go back.
I have a similar4" plastic pipe, corrugated so it can be bent from vertical to horizontal.
My last n'bor wanted me to put a 6' extension on one downspout, so I did. The other one empties on to the top of a mild hill
I only have the sump pipe going to it, but yes, not hard connected. Only way 4" couldn't handle 2" is if the 4" pipe collapsed. Not so far.
But if it did, it would be like a friend of mine's whose basement I slept in the night after her wedding. I checked it out the next morning, but that night, sump pump went on, pumped the water 2 inches from the wall, water went down through the soil into the sump and the sump pump went on again! She was married and moving anyhow, so I don't remember if I told her about it.
Did you tell me about this before. I think so. That is probably a problem for me too, and I figured out another one. I put the checkvalve right below the sink in the vertical part of the drain. I could have put it in a horizontal part past the trap. So the incoming water has to fight gravity too. I could have made it so the draining water fought gravity and the backing up water was helped by it. It didn't work the first time I removed the stopper, but one time that I forgot to put the stopper in, it limited the overflow to a pint or less.
I just let it sit there. No dehumidifier, no mold. I think at least
13 times.
Well the check valve on the sump pump only matters when the pump turns off. The builder didn't put one in, but all it means is that 8.5 feet (the head) of water in a 2" pipe falls back into the sump when the pump turns off.
Now if I added a second pump that used the same vertical output pipe , (unlike a water powered base pump), I would have to add a check valve in each pipe that's not shared, one for each pump Or else when only one pump is running, the water would be pumped to where the pipes join and it would go right back down again through the other pipe to and through the other pump, to the sump again. Making room for these checkvalves was the last but most difficult part of designing in a second pump. But ACE sells two pumps already assembled together, to fit a sump. Maybe that's the answer. One pump would use a battery.
That's still about a gallon and a half of water that starts filling up the pit again and has to be pumped back out.
IDK what happens when you put two pumps that each expect their own
2" pipe onto a single 2" pipe, but I suspect it's not good. You can't fit 10 lb of crap into a 5 lb bag. It's fine if only one runs at a time and the second one is strictly for backup or power outage. But you indicated you had times where more than one pump was required for the volume.
Twice in the last 6 years during unusually heavy rains I've dropped a
2nd, small pump (with float) into the pit and ran a flexible corrugated hose over to the wash tub. This situation has addressed what appeared to be an impending overflow of my pit. I'd picked up the 2nd pump at a garage sale for $5. This solution obviously wouldn't work if I wasn't home.
You're right, not much. And your last words make me think, the pump will run the battery dead even if the house has electricity, because the charger they expect you to use is smaller than 3 decks of cards. Not enough to run the pump on its own, I think.
Now if I connected my 40 amp charger to the batttery, or better yet a newer one that wouldn't overcharge hthe battery, that would probably run the pump as long as it took. But I don't want to buy another charger and the company might say it's a bad idea. I'll look into that too.
For sure, but now that I know the pump does about 3800 gph, that's only about a second and a half of pumping each time.
During the episode when the pump couldn't keep up with the input, the pump never turned off, so a check valve wouldn't have helped.
Just one time in 31 years. The makers of battery operated pumps say to set them up so the AC pump comes on first and the other doesn't come on unless the water rises high enough to turn it on, which is higher than for the AC pump. Then when the battery pump comes on, if there is still AC electricity in the house, both pumps will be running at once, and they often say that the battery pump will add to the total output using the standard 2" pipe. Of course they could be lying.
It's sort of similar to the problem with the street drailn. There is a tremendous amount of water coming out of the pipe now, even though water is only about 11" up a 22" inside diameter pipe at the exit. If the opening to the catch basin which leads to the pipe were twice as big as it is now would the pipe be able to carry more? Twice as much? I'm sure it could carry more, ** and it doesn't have to carry twice as much
I could go outside and look at the output from the sump pump now, like i looked at the output from the drain pipe. You're right. I should do that, next time the sump pump is going on frequenltly I will.
**but it turns out not everyone is convinced yet. I'll start another thread when I know more about that. .
its better to use seperate drain lines for each pump. this prevents a single drain failure causing a flood. but as I said earlier a gravity overflow drain to daylight is better.
I have a friend who bought a foreclosed home sitting on a hill that had a major water problem in the basement. he had 3 sump pumps and interior french drain installed. he felt safe........
I walked thru the home and suggested at least a overflow to daylight drain installed. He didnt want to dig up the yard:(
less than 2 years later he was on a trip, big storm took out power for 3 days. his besement filled with 5 feet of water. ruined lots of stuff.
Separate drain lines, separate pumps. separate check valves, and if possible on two completely separate electrical circuits, preferably one on each side of the 120/240 circuit so that if one half goes out, the other may still be working.!!!
I have two completely separate electrical pumps, float sensors, discharge lines, and also a water-powered pump with its own float at a much higher level as a final backstop before boarding Noah's ark.
A good idea. But I personally still have to keep my laundry sink plugged up so the water doesn't back up into it. And that roughly corresponds to when the big rains are.
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