EPA to protect small engines

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On 9/20/2012 12:27 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

No premium involved. I have multiple friends who know something about gasoline prices and have seen wholesale price schedules and non blended fuel costs less.
One of my friends family owns a bunch of large Cstores. They were one of the last of the bigger operators around here to convert to blended ethanol fuels. One of the reasons it happened so quickly was the "walmart syndrome". People were shopping only on price not value and a gas station operator could buy blended fuel for $0.09~0.11 less/gallon. So if you owned a station everyone just knew you were ripping them off by selling them non-blended for more money. Eventually all had to convert.

It would actually go up.

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wrote:

Probably. The oil companies will say the supply was reduced by 10% and refinery capacity isn't there. And they'll have a point.
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Vic Smith wrote:

We've got plenty of refining capacity.
Excess refining capacity on the Gulf Coast is why the XL Pipeline was conceived. It would be cheaper to build a 1,500 mile pipeline to Texas than to build a refinery anywhere along the way.
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Define "plenty". this report says that in June of this year there was just over 7% excess capacity and it looks like the trend for the year was for that number to continue decreasing. All it takes is for one refinery to go poof and voila, no excess capacity. Considering the age of most refineries, it's a certainty that more and more refinery accidents will occur, not to mention the downtime due to maintenance
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_unc_dcu_nus_m.htm
here's a biased summary of refinery accidents in the US for the last 8 years. shows a total loss of oil (spills) of 25000000 gallons
and this is just for Louisiana

and you can bet that any oil refined there will likely be shipped overseas where it will fetch a higher price
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On 9/20/2012 3:40 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

Not a defender of big oil but blended has always been less expensive at wholesale because of tax exemptions and subsidies.
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Well duh! That was precisely the point, that gas WITHOUT ETHANOL is selling for a higher price, ie at a premium to blended.

Apparently some are still offering both and selling the ethanol free gas at a premium.

You must be one of the guys that thinks a $40,000 volt really only costs $25,000 because the govt is subsidizing it to the tune of $15,000. We are all paying the true cost of the Volt, just as we are all paying the true cost of ethanol, including all the subsidies. And then factor in what it's done to the price of bread and cornflakes and it's a total disaster.
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On 9/19/2012 8:28 AM, HeyBub wrote:

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/energy-a-environment/249857-epas-four-gallon-minimum-mandate
Even Al Gore has said the ethanol requirement was a mistake.
Also one big environmental group, can't remember who, has said it.
Get rid of ethanol and all the other boutique grades of gas and there would be a huge price drop.
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That and the prices of food would go down as well as too much of the corn crop is being diverted to this eco-fuel boondongle...
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On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 2:15:14 PM UTC-4, Evan wrote:

So, screw the farmers. Typical. It's okay to take one for the team as long as it's not *me*, right?
I am so sick of hearing people cry about how expensive food is and how it cuts into their iPhone budget. People need to get some perspective and get their priorities straight. We've still got the cheapest food in the world as % of income, and most of it is the good tasting "fun" food, not tree bark and lizard entrails.
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On Sep 20, 9:29am, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

As if today's farmers are straight out of a Norman Rockwell picture, sitting on the porch, with their suspenders on. Most of those profitting from ethanol subsidies are huge farming operations and large corporations. And there is plenty of demand today for grains around the world so that while grain prices will go down, farmers are not going to go broke.
This stupidity of subsidizing farmers has been something conservatives have railed against for decades. Today it has reached even more absurd extremes.


food is and how it cuts into their iPhone budget. People need to get some perspective and get their priorities straight. We've still got the cheapest food in the world as % of income, and most of it is the good tasting "fun" food, not tree bark and lizard entrails.
Tell that to the starving people in places like Africa that are eating tree bark and lizards because the worldwide price of food has been driven up by the tripling of grain prices due to diversion to ethanol.
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On Thursday, September 20, 2012 9:29:57 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:

What you need to understand is that today's farmer is not that little guy standing with a hoe out in his field. Today it is big agribusiness typified by Archer Daniels Midland, the guys that greased the political palms to get them to legislate this boondoggle. No small farmers will be hurt by nullification of the ethanol mandate.
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"Frank" <

What is true is that the cost will go down. Prices especially at the pump ....
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I've read that ethanol is "energy negative". Takes more petroleum to plant, harvest, and distill. More than the energy you get back.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
"Frank" <

What is true is that the cost will go down. Prices especially at the pump ....
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Not only that, to use e85 in my truck and break even, it needs to be 70-80 cents cheaper than regular gas. I think my truck looses 20% in power. Never tried it though.
Greg
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Was at garage today. Was buying some lawnboy oil. One of the workers was going to drive me home, after learned my car was dangerous. He manned a position in the shop of working on small motorized tools and mowers. I said I sometimes use gas stabilizer. He showed me this stuff in a bottle that treated up to 150 gallons. He said it was to help limit the destructive nature of the alcohol. I don't know what it is, but I got lots of motorized tools.
Greg
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On 9/19/2012 11:50 PM, gregz wrote:

The destructive nature of ethanol is the greater solvent power. It can attack seals in engines not designed for it. It did in my snow thrower a couple of years ago when I left stabilized fuel in it.
Ethanol containing gas cannot be pipe-lined from refineries because the greater solvent power would take out any old gunk deposits and contaminate the fuel. Same for old gas tanks. When first mandated here, they had to close down gas stations for maybe a week to clean out the old tanks so they could contain E10.
Stormin is correct in that there are studies that show production of ethanol for fuel is nearly energy neutral - it takes as much energy to make it as you get out of it.
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Sorry to hear gasohol gave you trouble. Makes me wonder, when I got a used snow blower, it had some black specs floating in the fuel tank. Repeatedly clogged the carb, so I put inline fuel filter. Wonder if that was an ethanol failure?
I think the way to protect small engines is to give up on the gasohol concept, and use corn and wheat for animal feed and people food instead.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
The destructive nature of ethanol is the greater solvent power. It can attack seals in engines not designed for it. It did in my snow thrower a couple of years ago when I left stabilized fuel in it.
Ethanol containing gas cannot be pipe-lined from refineries because the greater solvent power would take out any old gunk deposits and contaminate the fuel. Same for old gas tanks. When first mandated here, they had to close down gas stations for maybe a week to clean out the old tanks so they could contain E10.
Stormin is correct in that there are studies that show production of ethanol for fuel is nearly energy neutral - it takes as much energy to make it as you get out of it.
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On 9/20/2012 8:52 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I don't know the exact problem as I just had the shop fix it. Later reading through the manual, it said don't use gas with alcohol in it. Impossible around here. Having it fixed and running tank dry at end of season has been working fine.
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It's near time to get my snow blower running. I wonder if run it dry helped with my machine?
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
I don't know the exact problem as I just had the shop fix it. Later reading through the manual, it said don't use gas with alcohol in it. Impossible around here. Having it fixed and running tank dry at end of season has been working fine.
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On Thursday, September 20, 2012 9:45:25 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've never had problems with restarting engines I've run dry but it is always best to check out your stuff way before it is needed. I'll crank up my lawnmower a month before season because I know if it fails to start when I need it the mower shop will be full of lawnmowers needing repair and I'll have to wait a couple of weeks.
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