Electricital question

[SteveB]

We just bought a cabin. It has a 100 amp service breaker, and a service panel with 5 20 amp breakers.

I know on appliances, all I have to do to find out the amperage is RTFM, but for lights and such, how do I calculate just how much wattage I can put on any breaker circuit?

The lighting is inadequate. I will need more. I have a licensed electrician friend who will come and wire everything, so it will be done right and safe. I just need to get an idea how many lights we are talking about so I can do some shopping. I don't want to max everything out and put up a ton of lights. I just want to balance them, and not put so many that I am approaching critical mass.

TIA

Steve

[RBM]

[TURTLE]

this is Turtle.

In normal lighting circuits it is hard to over load normal lighting wattages to just light up a cabin. Just take 1 -- 20 amp breaker and circuit for lights only and that gives you 20 -- 100 watt light bulbs to light up the cabin. One Circuit is what I thinik you need for all lighting to the cabin.

Now really 19.6 -- 100 watt light bulbs to be exact.

TURTLE

[George E. Cawthon]

Wattage devided by the voltage (120) is amps. Or just add up the wattage. 20 amps x 120v = 2400 watts. Lights are easy since the wattage is written on each bulb.

[Pop]

Not the best idea: Pop the breaker an dthe whole place goes dark. They should be mixed on at least two breakers, and instead of 20 bulbs, that would be 16 bulbs. Over 80% usage will allow normal variations in the grid, cabin, over time, breakers, etc. to begin to heat the breaker, thus degrading it over time and leaving no safety overhead. So with a min two lines you've got 32 bulbs now, lots more than you'll need. Not sure where the 80% figure comes from, nec, ul, mfg, whatever, but it's reality.

HTH, Pop

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

He was asking what number of breakers would be need for lighting for the cabin. I said 19.6 for a 20 amp breaker will support the 19.6 light bulbs and will be the 80% of the amperate of the 20 amp breaker. He can split up the bulb in all area , but all lighting would not need more than 1 --- 20 amp circuit, no matter how he run it.

With two circiuts of 20 amps he could put not 32 -- 100 watt light bulbs but

39.2 --- 100 light bulbs. This would still be compliant of the 80% rule of the two 20 amp breaker circuits.

Now the degrading of the breaker to trip at lower amperages is just a effect you have to deal with 20 to 30 years from now and just wait 20 years or so and think about them.

TURTLE

[gfretwell]

What 80% rule?

This urban legend has taken on a life of it's own. There are lots of

80% rules in the NEC (even some 50% rules) but none of them apply to lighting fixtures in a dwelling.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

When Speaking of a Electrical breaker in a breaker box suppling electricity and the 80% rule does not matter if the elctricity is supplied to a whole home or to a one light bulb. If you have a 20 amp breaker in the box. You better not put more that a 80% of 20 amp load on it. So You can have a 16 amp load to be supplied to the 20 amp breaker.

i know now that your not a electrician for you would know exactly what I was speaking about and you would be telling me about the 80% rules. So 80% Applies to everything that will pull amps from a breaker and if you want to change anything. Please be welcome to do as you please.

TURTLE

[nicksanspam]

At a lower power factor... watts = 0.4 x volts x amps, for some undercounter fluorescents.

Nick

[SteveB]

I bet Turtle doesn't, but if he has kids, probably. Like at my house.

Steve

[TURTLE]

[Stormin Mormon]

Dear Steve, the formula is

volts times amps = watts

So, you can say that the 110 volt circuit, times 20 amps = 2200 watts.

Hint: Try using flourescent, or compact fluorescent bulbs. They use a lot less power.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

first i don't do residentiual electric work and only commercial HVAC which makes me do the electric for them.

Second if you was running power to lights and the lighting wattage was 2,400 watts / 24 -- 100 watt light bulbs and then would you say you would hook all them up to a 20 amp breaker which the load would be matching a 2,400 watt load. Then or would you only connect 19.6 light bulb on the 20 amp breaker to not over load the breaker and trip if all the lights were turned on at one time. Awwwww that would be the 80% rule. When every you pull over 80% of the breakers rating. Your asking it to trip and you have to come back to rebalance the loads.

Tell me what you would do with this problem !

TURTLE

[Doug Miller]

Wrong.

What you say here is completely wrong.

It's quite obvious that *you* are not an electrician, or you would know that the 80% rule refers to continuous loads, defined by the NEC as "a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours or more." This does *not* apply to residential lighting circuits, or indeed to most other loads.

[gfretwell]

Turtle, I specifically addressed residential lighting loads. Do you have every light in your house on at the same time?

BTW maybe you could think of the "80%" rule as an absolute in your business since HVAC can be called a continuous load but it is far from universal in residential and never applies to the residential "general lighting" loads. If you added up all the required receptacle circuits and lighting in a residence at 125% of potential load a small bungalo might need a 400a service. They use something called load diversity to indicate that only a small part of the loads in a home will be on at any given time.

As a related topic, I hope you understand the "minimum circuit ampacity" on the nameplate of HVAC equipment already has the 80% factor built into it so you don't need to size to 125% of that number. A am sure you have noticed that the branch circuit overcurrent dervice spec is quite a bit higher than 310.16 would seem to allow. It's perfectly legal. Ain't the NEC fun?

[Doug Miller]

Then perhaps you shouldn't be trying to answer questions about residential electrical work...

No, that's just plain wrong. The 80% rule DOES NOT APPLY in this situation because it is NOT a "continuous load" as defined in the NEC.

Nonsense. Twenty 100W light bulbs is NOT going to trip a 20A breaker.

I wouldn't do anything about it -- because it is NOT a problem.

[SteveB]

Now, I am really confused. I never thought this would be such a complex issue.

It seemed like a simple question, but now I am not so sure. I am thinking of cancelling the sale because of all of this.

I mean, I lie awake nights now, thinking of amperage, wattage, voltage, and things I didn't even know existed last week.

The current debate has caused me to think of a lot of related issues.

Will the atmospheric pressure change affect these bulbs? What if I buy them here in Nevada and take them to Utah? Will the change in elevation or time zone affect their performance?

Will the "long life" bulbs violate the religious beliefs of the area where there are strong afterlife philosophies? Would I be in violation of local traditions by bringing in these "long life" bulbs?

What happens if I violate this 80% rule? Say, by 2%? Was this one of the commandments that was dropped by Mel Brooks playing Moses in "The History of the World, Part One"?

If I use bulbs made outside of the US, can I, in good conscience, ask my union electrician buddy to work on this project?

There are five 20 amp breakers. That will give me up to 20,000 watts in a

1200 square foot cabin. Or, a mere 16,000 if I listen to the 80% philosophy. My question is, IF the Space Shuttle were flying, will it be visible from space? That's a lot of light.

Should I just use Halogens?

Do you think I will need eye protection?

Do you think it will cause sunburn or carpet discoloration?

In the meantime, I believe I will just stick to flashlights, candles, and kerosene lights.

All this other stuff is just so complicated and confusing.

Right now, I'm going to take six valiums and try to wind down.

Steve

[George E. Cawthon]

Do fluorescent lights have a power factor? would like to know. But, that said, if the undercounter light fixture say 15W, then that is how much is used regardless of power factor and w=va still applies. or am I wrong and the labels are incorrect.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

You missed the question of what you would do in this case. I stated that I would not put but 20 -- 100 watt light bulbs on a 20 amp circuit / breaker. The 20 light bulbs would be the max i would put on the 20 amp breaker because of the

80% rule.

what is the max number of 100 watt light bulbs that you can put on a 20 amp breaker ?

So , What is the answer to this question ?

TURTLE

[nicksanspam]

Sure... 0.4 in the case above.

Yes.

You am wrong. W = PFxVxA.

Nick