Actually in my case, the opposite. The "lost" heat in the winter just reduces the amount of heat my furnace needs to produce to heat my basement. In the summer, ANY lost heat is LOST and adds to the amount of AC required (when the AC is run )
The old "demand" heaters - and even "flat rate" heaters - you rented from the PUC and it was connected BEFORE the meter -------
In the house in Livingstone (Zambia) we shut the geiser off for the hot season. Gravity feed tank in the "attic" absorbed a LOT of heat.
90F out of the tap was on the cool side. With the water pipes on the outside of masonry walls you could almost scald yourself when you first opened the COLD water tap some days!!!
My WH is in the basement. Maybe it's 65 in summer, 55 in winter, ie not much difference in ambient temperature. 130 - 55, 130 -65, isn't going to make much difference in a number that's already fairly small.
Only pilot light is in the WH.
That' exactly how it worked at my parents house decades ago. We almost never ran out of hot water either.
I worked at a large plant and two tankless units were installed at two sinks. Then it was discovered that there was not electricity capacity near the sinks and it would cost a lot to provide it. They were removed and small tanks were installed.
As far as I know, the "button method" does not provide hot water immediately. Don't you have to wait until the cold water is replaced with hot water in the pipes? Granted, you may get hot water as soon as you turn the faucet on, but only after waiting for the cold water to be replaced by hot. You _save_ water, but you still have to wait.
As far as a continuous pump, that seems like a double waste. Doesn't that waste electricity since the pump is running 24-7? Don't you have heat lost to the air from the hot water running in the pipes 24-7?
I think this is a good app for an X10 motion sensor. As soon as someone enters the bathroom, it turns on the pump.
These pumps made for that purpose typically have a timer and also a thermostat. You can set the timer so that water will only circulate during certain times of the day, when it's likely someone will need it. And the thermostat turns it off, once hot water reaches the faucet. Those two things won't eliminate wasted heat, but can greatly reduce it.
I installed a 1/2" recirculating line when I plumbed our house, since our hot water heater is about 40-50 feet away from the farthest fixture. Then I installed a pump at the water heater to circulate the hot water.
The 3/4" main lines hold a lot of water over that distance, and the draw is slow with low flow sinks and shower heads.
Without the pump running, it takes well over a minute for hot water to reach the shower head in our master shower (the farthest fixture). That doesn't sound bad unless you're standing around on a cold morning waiting for hot water. Then it seems like an eternity. :)
With the pump running, we get hot water in 5-10 seconds (the time to empty the short pipe between the recirculating line and the shower head).
Mine doesn't have a thermostat, but I do have a timer that only runs the pump a few hours in the morning, and a few hours in the evening (the times we are most likely to use hot water). We can still use the hot water other times of the day, we just have to wait longer for it.
I originally had a pump with a built-in timer, but that timer failed within a few years so I added an external timer. These days I have the pump connected to an Insteon switch that I control with my computer.
I'm sure there is some minor heat loss from the recirculating line, since it actually warms the floor in our laundry room. However, I don't see any significant difference in our electric bill (electric water heater). I'm sure the timer and the insulated pipes help with that.
Anthony Watson
Per trader_4:
My low-tech workaround:
- Turn on the shower
- Brush my teeth
- Take my morning dump
- Step into the shower.
Per Tekkie®:
Aesthetics.... -)
My 1st floor kitchen and 2nd floor bathroom are directly above the basement WH. Hot water is pretty close to instantaneous.
My basement bathroom is about as far from the WH as it can be, pipe wise. I had to explain to my wife that it makes no sense for her to turn the bathroom sink faucet to hot to wash her hands unless she is planning on waiting.
I explained to her that all she was doing was pulling hot water into the pipes, causing the WH to turn on but never using the hot water because she's done before it reaches the sink. Some folks just don't realize what's going on in the background when they turn on a faucet or a light, etc.
200 amps just to heat water.. pllus your regular service, call your power company the neighborhood transormer may need upgraded too.....
What happens when the power fails? Can't run that sized load with a generator. Then again, probably can't run a normal electric tank heater on a generator, either. What do you do if you don't have gas service but still want hot water if the power fails in the winter?
What size generator do you have that can run an electric water heater (I guess I should ask what size that WH is, too)?
I could run a water heater on my generator, but I have natural gas, so I'll never have to.Later this spring the generator will be running on Natural gas too (along with the furnace, that will run off the generator) Sure couldn't run a tankless on the generator.
Yeah, that's a good point too. I do the same thing you do, ie I don't turn on the hot water at a faucet that is far from the WH unless I'm planning to draw enough so that it gets there. Most people probably turn it on anyway and as you say, it never gets there before they are done.
Many water heaters are 4500 watts. They say dual elements,but only one element is on at a time. One of the 5000 watt or beter generators will run the heater. YOu just let it run for a while to get the water hot ,then cut off the breaker to the water heater when you want to run other high wattage devices.
Long story short from my experience ............
If you are building, and can install what you need from the start, that is the best scenario. More later.
For hand washing sinks, they shine. I wouldn't use a gas fired one due to it being more complex, and a 110 would be a simple install IF 110 IS CHEAPLY AVAILABLE, OR CAN BE STUBBED IN DURING CONSTRUCTION.
No matter what anyone says, for long runs of HOT water, they just don't work well unless you go with overkill. Anyone I have ever talked to who had one for shower or washing said they just don't put out HOT water for very long. Some people like HOT showers, and it makes a difference. I do not like HOT showers, so it would not make a difference to me. I do, however, like a 100 degree bath, but they can handle that.
The power requirement is a big thing. The electrics take a good bit of power, and sometimes it takes running an additional dedicated line and breaker. If gas, it has to come from somewhere, and you have to do the math, and figger if it is a short or long run. The big electrics take a lot of juice, and generally, there isn't just another leg you can tap into to get power. Sure, AC might be close with a 220 line, but it won't pass inspection, and you wouldn't be able to run the two at the same time even if you jury rigged it after the inspector left, or didn't have it inspected at all ... not a good idea for insurance, codes, law, etc.
Cost amortization is something else. We have a cabin, and I was thinking of getting one because of the low requirements. But we already had propane, and costwise it would have been more. The original tank lasted from 1978 until 2013 due to draining it every season. That's good enough for me, even though HD did gouge us another $100 for propane, coming in at $600 for a 50 gal tank. You would have to run your own amortization, and include retrofit to bring power to the unit.
Bottom line, I would get some, but it would totally depend on location, particularly like a hand sink at the end of a long run that takes a long time to get hot water. Shop is another good place. Remote places. I would not get one for shower/tub/washing.
They are good, just not that good, but good for some things. It's your money.
It would mean the end of newsgroups as we know them ..........
but that could be a good thing, too.
I have heard similar stories, particularly from one know it all type that I know, who went out and bought the Platinum model. Got it to where he wanted to put it, and found he did not have the electricty to run it. He had it pretty well installed, so had to move it, including piping. Guess he thought he was just going to drag a big extension cord over to it. Took extra bundles of cash for another sub panel, 100A breaker, and a couple of miles of large cable. He was told, but I think it was something he already knew, and disregarded the info.
hmmmm. checking into things BEFORE the project. What a novel idea.
Steve
Everyone knows power only goes out in the summer.
Dolt.
Steve
9kw generator
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