Electric Panel Question - two v one panels

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On Thursday, January 1, 2015 9:29:04 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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Tom Horne had that reqt listed as one of the key points in his post a few days ago:
"Whether your arrangement is in violation of the National Electric Code or not depends on several facts as yet unrevealed.
How many breakers are in the pool panel and what ampacity are they? If the re are five or fewer breakers and there is no room for additional breakers to be added then the installation may well have been compliant when it was built. If there are more than five breakers in the pool panel then the ins tallation was a done in violation of the Code.
Are both panels listed for use as service equipment?
Were the Grounding Electrode Conductors brought into and terminated in both panels?
Were the taps off of the meter load side done with listed materials install ed in conformance with their listing and labeling.
Answer those questions and we may be able to give you a sound judgement on whether the installation is code compliant "
That's been one of the givens, that it can meet code, provided it's done ri ght.
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wrote:

No problem using a service entry panel as a distribution panel, and if there is a primary fused disconnect outside, 2 service entry panels can be connected downstream with one possible problem. Since you can turn off ONE "sub main" without killing all circuits in the building that may be a problem - Using a distribution panel as an entry panel is a different story unless it is rated to use a buss mounted breaker as a main input breaker. to convert it to a service entry panel.
Up here in Canada I have not seen that done - suspect it is not allowed.
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wrote:

There is only one service coming in from the utility. We seemed to have determined that this only has one service disconnect and the pool panel is a feeder tap off of the main feeder to the house panel. That leaves us with how we are protecting the pool panel and the feeder tap.
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On Friday, January 2, 2015 1:06:44 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

No, that is not how it's wired. There are two panels outside. One contains only a disconnect/breaker for the house. Right next to that is the pool panel, which is wired in on the utility side of the house disconnect/breaker. Wiring goes from the outside panel with the house disconnect/breaker into the garage where the third panel, with all the house breakers is located. I thought most of us were in agreement on that when the thread began.

It's not protected, apparently because it's treated as a second main panel, not a feeder.
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wrote:

The prohibition against "tapping" is prohibiting skinning the cable and putting a burndy type clamp on the cable to connect a second cable. That used to be done a lot. The only legal way to do it now is at the lug. In certain cercumstances 2 lugs may be fasteded to one bolt, with one cable connected to each lug. In other cercumstances a bus bar with 2 lugs is required. I don't know what the rules are allowing or requiring one or the other.
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wrote:

You can tap the service conductors to feed multiple service disconnects. It is fairly common in big industrial installations where they want to break a bigger service into smaller segments. This usually happens in the CT can where the metering transformers are or in a gutter right next to it.. That will get piped right into multiple disconnects from there. 230.82 is talking about other equipment that is not part of the service equipment. You can just look at the exceptions to see that,
In residential the best way to do this would be to buy a multi lug meter base but you could use any listed splicing method inside the proper enclosure. Where you might run into trouble would be if you did this in the service disconnect enclosure and there was not sufficient room.
At this point it is just an academic exercise because I believe we determined the OP was tapped on the load side of the SD.
I am really not sure we even care because we have wandered so far from the original question. ;-)
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On Friday, January 2, 2015 11:12:51 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

violation of 230.2? There's also a rule in 230 that says a service can ne ver be tapped above the disconnect.

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rvice disconnecting means. I interpreted that (I know, dangerous) to mean anywhere from the supply lug of the disconnect back to the meter, so if you are allowed a second service conductor you'd have to start that one at the meter. That does seem a bit in conflict with 230.46 that says you can spl ice and tap, but only if you follow 100.14, 300.13, and 300.15, and also in conflict (maybe) with 230.40 that says there can only be one service entra nce conductor.

I just read that and I can see Tim's interpretation. I think that like you say they are taking the perspective of talking about everything looking back from the service disconnect and hence didn't include the service eqpt itself. They should say that though to make it clear.

IDK why you keep saying that it was determined that the OP was tapped on the load side? The only one who floated that was Tim, no one else agreed. What did you see that leads you to believe ther pool panel is connected after the outside disconnect? EVERYTHING I see says it's tapped on the meter side:
From the very first post:
"Main supply wires come out of the ground, go thru the electric meter and into a main breaker panel on the outside of the house that has a single large breaker in it that shuts of the entire house. Inside the garage is another panel that is fed from that main breaker and it has all the individual breakers for the various circuits, lights, plugs, A/C, Stove, etc.
Later I had a pool built and by some means the pool people went into the outside panel and tapped into the electric ahead of the big breaker. So flipping that main breaker to off does not de-power the panel for the pool equipment.
(Particularly probative there is that he says the pool electrician went into the one and only *outside* panel, which contains only a disconnect breaker between the meter and house and that they wired *ahead* of that disconnect/breaker. He further states that this disconnect/breaker will not disconnect the pool panel.)
OK, so a while ago the breaker in the pool panel that was for the 220v swimming pool pump went bad and it would not stay "on". There was no short or anything. I had turned it off to replace the pump motor (bad bearings) and found it would no longer stay on. Again, I verified no shorts and in fact if I flipped it to on "just right" it would stay on and the pump would run. In mucking around in the panel I realized there was no way to disconnect the panel from the mains and I had no desire to RR the bad breaker with the box live. So I called the local electricians I trust and had them come over to RR the breaker.
(he calls in an electrician because he had no way to cut power to the pool panel)
They said they have never seen a pool panel that did not tap in after the main house breaker and were concerned it did not meet code. They weren't 100% sure but insisted that I (not they, they wouldn't do it), they insisted that I needed to label the two panels (they are side by side) as 1 of 2 and 2 of 2. They didn't want to even have the label in their handwriting but did want it labeled!
(the electricians don't say, "oh, this is normal, you can just cut power to the pool panel by opening this disconnect over here". Instead the y confirm he's right, say they are concerned that they've never seen it done this way, that it doesn't meet code, should at least have labels installed marking the two panels as one and two, etc.)
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On 01/03/2015 7:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:

...

...
Again, one can _not_ read NEC by subsection in isolation; one can draw the wrong conclusion (as TimR did here). It is a document in its entirety...
NEC Figure 230.1 graphically shows which parts of NEC Chapter 2 apply to the various parts of the power distribution system. This figure is the "road map" if you will to applying the requirements of NEC Chapter 2.
NEC 230.82 limits the equipment you can connect to the supply side of the service disconnect to certain specific items.
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