Doorbell always uses electricity!

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No doubt. For good or ill, I believe they are VASTLY outnumbered.

Waste is NOT "OK". However, one man's "waste" is another man's "useful purpose".
--
:)
JR

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On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:53:58 -0600, Jim Redelfs

Also, many TVs "forget" settings (at least on/off status) when power is removed. This adds to the work you have to do when you turn it back on.

--
29 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
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And I can easily tell you why. Take a close look at your first article in this rather long thread. Now using just that article, don't you see a rather nasty potential for injuring or killing someone?
So the immediate reaction from the people reading is
"What an IDIOT! He wants to save a couple of cents per month at the risk of potentially killing someone! I have got to stop someone else from doing something this stupid and also potentially harming someone else"
Then later in the tread, you mention actually using a GFCI and wiring everything to code, etc., etc., etc. But you totally ignore anything involving return on investment. In order to save pennies, you spend 10s of dollars. Not a rational choice, but it is your choice.
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:37:48 -0500 (EST), snipped-for-privacy@mail.fiawol.org (J. Cochran) wrote:

I take issue with your assertion that this a long thread. We haven't even begun to put a value on "Pride of Ownership." Forget about the 120 volt welcome to strangers. That's a distraction from the real issue. Which is "Pride of Ownership." Whether it be your home or the apartment you are renting, consider this: The first impression you make on a visitor is your door, your doormat, and your doorbell or knocker. Also your house/apartment numbering if you care to be found. Take care of them and they will take care of you. I'm giving my daughter a new door mat for Christmas. Its color complements her home decor. Not the usual "Welcome." It says "Go Away." She may not think it appropriate. I leave the decision in her hands. Whatever she decides, a doormat is the smile your entryway presents to the world at large. But maybe not that one. This doormat costs 5 bucks. Yes, for as little as 5 bucks you can present an image to the world that says what you want it to say. That's many years of the transformer electricity savings being discussed. And much more valuable IN THE LONG RUN. Return on investment? What price "Pride of Ownership?" That's real ROI. Until the depths are plumbed trying our best to answer the real question - What price "Pride of Ownnership" - it is fruitless to waste time on transformer pennies. That's my strong belief. Others may disagree.
--Vic (VicsDiscountDoormatsDoorbellsandKnockers.com)
(CUSTOMIZED DOOR MAT WORDING AT LOW COST)
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I surely got a positive impression from the "Bike Church" in that area! Use human power to burn off a few of the exxcessive calories that Americans usually take in!

That I surely agree with!

Do unto others what you want others to do unto you - the "Golden Rule"! Whether you consider that originated by an embodiment of the Lord of All Gods or by a "mere major prophet" (my words) or by someone who merely managed to "channel The Force" about 2,000 years ago...

I like the non-worded doormats.
I also like the sign in the window of the front door (or posted on the front door if the front door lacks a window and is owned by a landlord and permitted by the landlord): NEVER MIND THE DOG - BEWARE OF OWNER! Such as owner of the dog, or owner of defensive weapon should dogs only be allowed on basis of "guide animals". The sign along that route usually has a picture of close-range view down-the-barrel view of a large caliber revolver. I do note that the "owner in question" often carries a handgun other than a revolver, so I consider merely carrying a handgun of any kind negates "any grounds of false advertising" on basis of mechanism or caliber size of whatever sidearm is carried by the "owner" that warns that a handgun is warned against in a posting!

I would still want my doormat to, if anything as to what it says, "Please wipe your shoes here"! Sign at eye level on the front door should say where permissible, "Never Mind The Dog - Beware Of Owner!", along with a picture of down-the-barrel view of a handgun. Otherwise, have a sign saying "Beware Of Dog" - preferably with a "Photoshopped" "somewhat reasonable" image of your dog (or the one you don't actually have) causing grievous injury to someone, preferably in a way likely to result in a hospital admission and days in the Intensive Care Unit!

<SNIP a bit from here>
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Did not the idea suggested here involve "Romex" and an appropriate v120V-rated pushbutton switch?

Savings can easily amount to $1.50-$2 per year. Deepending on value of labor to accomplish such, possibly even in a family's "entertainment buidget", at least some families can find such a project to be more worthwhile than earning money to put into "safer" investments/savings.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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At what? How much of the heat heats the target and how much goes elsewhere? Especially when it is air conditioning season?

Given your figures in earlier articles in this thread compared to ones I can show, I don't think it's a big deal for doorbell transformers to have to show their power consumption. And I doubt the cost would have to be increased more than $2 if the core material is "29M6" (or similarly good) as opposed to something only a couple steps above recycled ship hulls, and the primary turns count is increased enough to get peak magnetization down to about 13.75 kilogauss or so at 125 V. Doing all that can save most consumers about 75 cents to $1 per year per doorbell transformer.

I think "Energy Star" has done reasonably well, except for an instance brought to my attention earlier this year where EPA apparently did some boneheaded turf battle move against DOE in the area of LED lighting.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Heating.
That does not affect the efficiency of the heat production. What HAPPENS to the heat is not germane to my claim of 100% efficiency.
Your points, of course, are well considered AND considerable if operating cooling equipment within the same environment.
The electric furnace I owned for 13-years was likewise efficient. If one turned-off the lights at night and peered into the device, dim light could be seen - waste light.
--
:)
JR

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Jim Redelfs wrote:

It very much depends on exactly what you mean by "efficient". It is true that virtually 100% of the energy used for resistance heating is converted to heat.
But it is also true that using the same amount of energy to run, say, a heat pump, will deliver significantly more heat. That doesn't make heat pumps more than 100% efficient (they're not).
It is also true that you can generate more heat by directly using the same quantity of natural gas as was used to produce the energy, even though the typical gas furnace is probably not more than 90% efficient.
Dave
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Whatever light does not get out the windows (or escapes the house somehow) becomes heat.
Same story for the considerable amount of infrared wavelengths - some of which do go through glass.
Lightbulbs are pretty efficient at home heating also - it's just a matter of where the heat goes.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Indeed.
In my aforementioned electrically-heated home, I illuminated the playroom in the basement with six, 100-watt incandescent lamps, each with a bowl reflector.
During the heating season, I made little (if any) "bones" about it when my young daughters left them on after vacating the room. The living room floor, directly above, was always nice and toasty.
As the girls aged, I explained that they should try to turn them off to save energy which equated to money, particularly when we weren't running the heating plant. They "got it" and did quite well, remembering to turn off the lamps when they left the room.

Agreed.
As to your point that LIGHT becomes heat, I wonder how MUCH light would be required to heat a given space? Velly interesting...
--
:)
JR

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wrote in part towards the end in response to a prior posting of mine:

Giving efficiency of lamps or for that matter almost every other electrical load in a house approaching 100% for converting the electrical energy consumed to heat, I would not be too concerned with how much of the heat materializes after spending a few or several nanoseconds being in the form of light along a path of electricity consumption becoming heat. I would just consider the watts consumed by the electrical load and multiply by 3.4 to get BTU/hour if that is what you want.
Should you want something more academic, as in watts or BTU/hour in a given quantity of light:
The most common "official definition" (my words) of "visible light" is "electromagnetic radiation" having wavelegths in the 400-700 nm range.
1 watt of such from most light sources used to illuminate homes has about 240-300 lumens. A lumen is amount of photometric output that illuminates 1 square foot to extent of 1 footcandle, or 1 square meter to extent of 1 lux. A "USA-usual" 100 watt 120V "big-3 brand" lightbulb with rated life expectancy of 750 hours and coiled-coil filament produces 1670-1750 lumens, and about 6.6 watts, maybe 6.7 watts of radiation of wavelengths 400-700 nm.
Plenty of other "white light sources" produce radiation having roughly 240-320 lumens per watt of radiation of wavelength 240-320 nm, meaning 1 watt or 3.4 BTU/hour from 400-700-nm-"light" amounting to 240-320 lumens.
Keep in mind that along with that 6.6-6.7 watts of radiation in the "official visible light range", the above 100W lightbulb produces plenty of infrared. Something like around roughly ballpark 50 watts of infrared radiated by the filament passes through the glass bulb. The glass bulb typically radiates a few watts more infrared, maybe as much as 10 or a dozen or so. Since a 100 watt 120V lightbulb can produce something like 75 watts combined of infrared and visible light with a trace of ultraviolet that is mostly in the "non-tanning portion of UVA as in 'Blacklight Range' ", when light output is 1710 lumens, each lumen of light escaping the fixture *may* be associated with close to .044 watt of radiation that becomes heat in the home after exiting the lightbulb in form of radiation (in addition to heat from the fixture). .044 watt is about .15 BTU/hour.
But also since energy going into a lamp within a home experiences well-approaching 100% efficiency of producing heat within the home, I suggest that room or building heating effects result mainly from power consumption of the light source rather than photometrics. At the usual rate of about 3.4 BTU/hour per watt.
The biggest problem I hear now is as to how much home heating by lamps is achieved at ceilings and how much of that is off-target by producing heat above where it is wanted/needed!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Don Klipstein wrote:

I'm happy to see that you've cranked out the above numbers, which I have wondered about but not taken the time to calculate.
Ceiling heating is easily utilized by running ceiling fans backwards at a fairly low speed. We've been doing that for years and find that it really improves comfort.
With respect to areas inadequately addressed by the EPA and DOE regarding LED lighting I submit that for those of us with less acute vision than we had when much younger I have found that LED lighting is often a problem. Incandescent lamps, and fluorescent lamps (due to their phosphor reemission) produce a fairly broad, continuous spectrum with the bulk of the energy in the longer wavelengths. LED lighting (that without phosphors) produces light in a very narrow spectral band, or bands, usually at the shorter wavelengths. By a judicious selection of materials the wavelengths and intensities of the components forming the resulting line spectrum the eye can be tricked into believing that the light is the same as that from an incandescent lamp. It looks like "white" light. About 50years +/- ago George Wald showed how this happens in his work on the molecular theory of color vision. A good overview of this is found in the lecture he gave when accepting the Nobel Prize for this discovery.
When I look at something under LED derived "white appearing" light doesn't mean that when my eyes were refracted the light source was the same. Consequently, my glasses and the eyes they are correcting are optimized, not for short wavelength lines, but rather for the predominantly longer wavelengths present in the incandescent illumination used by the ophthalmologist. As one ages and the ability to accommodate deteriorates this becomes non-trivial.
Boden
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On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:57:03 -0600, Jim Redelfs

A *lot* of light! However, you must define light first (what spectrum) before you can answer it.
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I now have an "always off" house!
The only three things which are "always on" are my phone answering machine, the refrigerator*, and the freezer*.
*New "Energy Star" appliances.
Everything else has a handy "extension cord type switch" added next to the appliance so I can easily turn it "totally off" when not in use.
For my computer and TV/Stereo/Entertainment center areas, I have one or more power strips (no lights on these power strips) right next to each other so I can easily switch on just what I need to use (not everything all on with one power strip). Or I have little switches for one item plugged into the power strip.
So for my entertainment system, I can separately turn on the TV, stereo, Playstation, satellite TV, DVD, etc. I just turn on what I need. All the switches are right in one location and labeled, so easy.
Microwave is on switch, GFCI's are switched, outlet surge protectors are switched, garage door opener switched, HEPA air cleaners switched, window air conditioners switched, cell phone and other battery chargers, clock on range disconnected, space heaters switched so they are totally off, and of course the doorbell now only uses electricity when the button is pressed.
This was a one time expense. I used money I had saved from previous energy saving projects to pay for this. Anyway for the rest of my life I will have a lower electric bill.
In the past people have advised me to invest my money in the stock market (instead of in energy saving projects) because I would get a better return on my money. I'm glad I did not do that!
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so, maybe it should use water?
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

But didnt manage to explain to you the most important difference, if he is even aware of it.

Switch mode wall warts, with no transformer at all, both cost peanuts to build and have almost no standby losses.

No thanks. I'll decide for myself what makes sense instead.
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terry wrote:

Only about half the time. During the winter, I dump the output of our clothes dryer into the house. It adds humidity, heat, and overall comfort.
The CO monitor barely moves.
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terry wrote:

proper analysis: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=CFL_Lamps

Way more frugal and less work too: http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Clothes_Dryer
NT
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snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:
<SNIP to link quoted>

I followed such link and my results were:
"There is currently no text in this page, you can search for this page title in other pages or edit this page."
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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