Doorbell always uses electricity!

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Makes a lot more sense to use a modern switchmode wallwart instead.

I meant to say 'also' not 'always'. I dont proof read my posts.

Fraid so.

You dont know they are AC to AC.

I never said anything about no power.

There is no mistake except with the use of the word always.
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:01:27 +1100, "Rod Speed"
[snip]

That's much better.

Power to the wall-wart is AC. The load on that converter is a transformer, which REQUIRES AC. A transformer will not work with DC.

The quote I responded to is "They dont have any transformer that uses power all the time". That's the "no power".
After writing that I realized that the transformer could be eliminated by operating the voltage regulator on line voltage (possibly practical with a switching regulator). That would eliminate the transformer, as well as the (input / output) isolation which is required for safety.

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Yes.
Doesnt mean that the wallwart is AC to AC overall, most of them are AC to DC overall and you dont have to have a transformer in it.

Nope.
Precisely.
That doesnt have to be done with a transformer.
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:23:02 +1100, "Rod Speed"

Yes, although you might have noticed I wasn't talking about "overall", but about the circuitry that comes before the transformer.

Care to explain how the non-transformer wall-wart changes voltage?

OK I did make a mistake there, by assuming the presence of a transformer. How would you do it (convert 120V to 12V or so) without a transformer?

I guess that's the "faith based" method :-)
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That is what was being discussed tho.

That wasnt what was being discussed.

Most obviously with the low current use of a capacitor.
Nothing to stop you just rectifying the mains, then just doing a switch mode chopping that up and rectifying to a lower voltage without transformer either.

See above.

Guess again.
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Raising the frequency also is easier to rectify and filter the sine wave out, to give DC voltage.

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On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:48:06 -0600, "Craig M"

Yes, and there's also less iron in a high-frequency transformer, making it lighter.
BTW, I have a new USB hub with a 5V2.1A wall wart that's MUCH lighter than the "brick" we would have had once.

--
31 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
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The "Switcher" can refer to not only a DC voltage regulator, but also to circuitry operating a greatly smaller transformer that may require voltage regulation means.
"Switcher"/"Switchmode" even applies to high frequency usage of a miniaturized high frequency gransformer than can weigh close to or even under 1/4 ounce, along with voltage regulation *that in more-crude form* can be merely an analogue of a thermostat, as in there is an "output filter capacitor" AKA "smoothing capacitor", and the switchmode circuitry in question is "on" when the output voltage is "insufficient/low" and "off" when the outputv voltage "exceeds target by whatever margin".
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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wrote:

You think so, eh? How about the lead paint on toys, and Melamine in milk products and pet food?
They meet our requirements, do they?
And how about all those switch mode power supplies with defective electrolitic caps, that draw about 3 times the idle current they were designed to draw?
All because some ChiCom, as you call them, decided to cut corners (that's the only thing they are good at, by the way) on the formula for the electrolyte.
If I NEVER had to deal with another Chinese product it would be too soon, as far as I'm concerned. In my business (Computers) there would be NO product if there was no Chinese crap.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

<SNIP following stuff already said as well as most stuff previously said>
USA "customs" is supposed to enforce rules as ro what is allowed to be imported into USA.
The "Customs and Border Protection" USA government agency is now within the recently created "Department Of Homeland Security".
In pre-9/11 times, USA had passport checkings governed by "Department of State", which was one of the 4 "Cabinet Level Departments" of the "Executive Branch" of USA Federal government back when the Constitution and the "Bill Of Rights (earlier Amendments to USA's Constitution) took effect! Nowadays, how many "Cabinet Level Departments" does USA have? Close to 15? I would want 8! Even that is double what existed in USA in earlier days/years of existence of what was longer ago called the "Department Of War"!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
<SNIP in part due to stray MIME-related characters popping in)

That is 1/4-1/3 watt, occaisionally less.

Power strips without lights are common and easily available.
I also know how to get in a light consuming only 1/20 watt! Make it an InGaN green LED, in series with a 150K 1/4 watt resistor and a suitable diode. Put a second diode across the LED antiparallel with the LED (parallel in opposite directions). This also usually works fairly well with an InGaN blue LED despite discouraging numbers for photometrics.
And I think that manufacturing cost of adding that in at the 100,000 unit per year level should be something like roughly 30-40 cents or so above that of using an NE-2H neon lamp and its appropriate resistor. That can still bump up the retail price a couple bucks. Retail price goes up $1 according to a business model selling minimum of 1/4 million and preferably 1/2 million units per year. Spend 1-2 bucks more for a power strip having an "on light" to consume 1/4 watt less and keeping the "on light" decently bright (save 20-25 cents less per year) - rate of return is comparable to or somewhat more than that of long term performance of an S&P 500 index fund, should the power strip last at least 20-30 years.
The LED cost can be brought down maybe a dime if instead of InGaN chemistry, the LED is the variant of GaP that is the most major one of the ones to be known as "low current red". Peak wavelength of that one is usually noted as 690, 697 or 700 nm - but the spectrum is a broadband red one, so most of the photometric output is not from "borderline infrared". It will be rather dim at average current of .34 milliamp, but still easily visible in a dark room. It is probably a good idea with this LED to use a 120K-ohm resistor instead of a 150K one (power consumption is increased from 1/20 watt to 1/16 watt) - and I would only do so if using such a red LED instead of the better green one is necessary and sufficient to decrease the retail price by a buck.

That I agree with!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: > the outlet strip likely has a power on light of some sort wasting

But not when it's off :) And that power is probably returned manyfold by virtue of the fact that the light reminds you that the other things plugged in are continuing to use power, so you turn it off sooner.
In any case, mostly the power-on light is a switch with something like a built-in NE-2 (1/17 watt) bulb. No big deal.

It's true. But we need to maintain a sense of proportionality. A single person running central air sucks as much power (3-20KW) as 150,000 outlet strip indicator lights. A single load of clothes in an electric dryer uses as much power (6KWH) as 12 outlet strip indicator lights do in a year. So while we don't want to completely ignore the small stuff, the bulk of our effort needs to be reducing the use of those power hogs.
Dave
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Sometimes true, usually less than true since a power strip light consumes often around 1/4 watt. Merely 80,000 of such "lighted power strips" (my words) amounts to high end of your range for "central air".
Also consider that "air conditioning" by most who have such is in a minority of each year.
And furthermore, when "phantom loads" consume several watts, during air conditioning season the A/C burden is increased by a few watts.
- Don Klipstein (don@misty,com)
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Most of those wallwarts when idling consume 1-2 watts of electricity, .5-1 watt if they are more modern "switchmode" ones as opposed to ones with iron core transformers. Modern cellphone chargers consume about .5 watt unloaded. (There is a noticeable weight difference between switchmode ones and iron core ones.)
1 watt costs close to $1 per year at average residential electric billing rates in the USA. I think that the power strip will have a payback rate exceeding that of a decent mutual fund experiencing a bhull market.

Blower motors don't consume nearly as much power as refrigeration/AC/ heatpump compressor motors. But some blowers are not nearly as efficient as they can be now, and some refrigeration from 20 years ago still exists now, while being something like 40-50% as efficient as the modern stuff.

That depends on the home. Some homes are in locations with lower climate control needs. Some homes are occupied by occupants with lower climate control needs. Also consider that (3) can add to load of (2) since heat from incandescent bulbs adds to heat to be pumped out of the home by air conditioning.

I would do everything where the payback rate exceeds that of long term dividend-reinvested performance of the S&P 500 (and that exceeds long term performance of value of a lot with a house on it).
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:18:47 -0800, "Bill"

-snip-
I would be interested in seeing your list of 50 or 100 items and especially interested in seeing how much electricity they use.
I could do without electricity completely- except that I like the convenience. I suspect the electricity your appliances are using is providing some sort of convenience. If you'd rather use less electricity and don't care about the convenience, then unplug them- or put a switch on the plugs.
Jim
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<SNIP from here>
If it's merely 60-70% of everything and their usage-while-off is 3-5% of electric bill of 1/4-1/3 of people with electric bills, that is still significant!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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wrote:

Not really. You get far better return on your time and money by going after the 95-97%. Turn lights off when not in use. Unclog the line from the dryer. Go with a more efficient water heater and fridge if they're ancient. Spending a thousand dollars worth of time and supplies to trim off $2/month is insanity. It is the high wattage items that matter. Not three dozen quarter watt items that don't add up to 5 watts or to a whole ten dollars a year.
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I already do that.

I have yet to live where dryer exhaust lines spend any significant time being clogged, and I have yet to know anyone allowing me to detect such clogs!

I agree here - mainly for the fridge!
Spending a thousand dollars worth of time and supplies

Spending $20-$30 in a high-spending-in-this-area-year is actually frugal. If that is insane, then I am proudly insane!

But my contention is that "phantom loads" consist highly of items drawing 1/2 watt, 1 watt, 2 watts, and in one instance 4-5 watts (my computer when "off"), and in another instance 10-11 watts when off (my TV).
I see sanity rather than insanity to buy a couple power strips to chip down electric bill by $2 per month!
I also see how such contention of mine does not dispute need to reduce energy consumption in "more major" areas!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

That's not "insane".
Instead, I PREFER to spend that $2/month rather than have to remember to close the power strip switch every time I wish to watch TV or use whatever else is connected to the power strip - that used to be connected full-time and available without second thought. That is the price I willingly pay for such convenience.

How about "reduce INCREASING energy consumption"?
Conservation will not actually REDUCE the level of consumption. It will only reduce the INCREASE and, perhaps unfortunately, not by much.
Also, the "need" to reduce is debatable.
--
:)
JR

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Jim Redelfs wrote:

But lots of folks think otherwise. Thats just your rationalization as to why waste is OK.

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