Code Question

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Is there any reason why I can't have two outlets in the same box with each outlet on a different phase? I would like to take a standard duplex outlet, split it apart, and run a neutral and a hot to each side. The other end of the hots would go to a ganged circuit breaker. Before you ask, its for X10 diagnostic purposes (to measure/inject the X10 signal on each phase, right at the service panel).
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Outlets are often wired this way, usually using three-conductor romex. There is no code restriction.

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It is called "edison circuit", and in fact is code in canada for kitchens.
Works fine, and allows both outlets to pull full power.
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John Hines wrote:

Interesting.
Down here code dictates a GFI installed if within x distance from water, maybe other circumstances. I just GFIed all the kitchen.
If an edison circuit were used in a kitchen in a duplex box both outlets would have to be a GFI. ?
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Mark

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No, you have to use a tied GFCI breaker ($125) per outlet.
That is why I went with the US standard of a single 20 amp circuit, to each GFCI outlet ($10).
Given that I've gone from 15 amps total, to 55 now in the kitchen outlets, that should hold me.
Apparently, up in the "great white north", they use hi power electrical kitchen appliances more often, and need to plug more stuff in.
IMHO, the 20 amps per duplex outlet will be fine.
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wrote:

Or use the new(er) 12-2-2 with ground Romex that's on the market now. It's usually intended to supply two AFCI circuits since tied AFCI breakers aren't available yet. The cable contains 2 hots, 2 "neutrals" and an equipment grounding conductor. But then the first outlet box would have to have double duplex GFCI's receptacles, if the CEC allows that.
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_Pair_ of outlets. NEC and CEC permits "alternate counter outlets" to be off the same common neutral circuit.

Not necessary to use that exotic a wire.
Install a double box near the panel. From a tied breaker in the panel, wire ordinary 12-3 or 14-3 to the double box. Install two GFCI outlets, one on each hot leg, and split the neutral _before_ connecting to the "line" side neutrals of the GFCI's.
Then run two 14-2 or 12-2's to the kitchen counter outlet[s] from the "load" side of the GFCIs. Don't confuse which neutral goes with which hot. Cut _both_ links on the duplex, and wire one cable to each half of the outlet.
An inspector may grumble, but would probably pass it once it's explained that you're simulating a $100+ dual GFCI breaker with <$20 worth of GFCI outlets.
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Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
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Romex is not allowed in my jurisdiction. So I'm using 1/2" Greenfield and 12ga str wire.
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Mark wrote:

You can use a GFI outlet (or 2) on an edison circuit. Run your 12/3wg wire from a 2-pole breaker to a 2-gang box in your kitchen and put 2 GFCI devices in it. Beyond that point, you no longer have an edison circuit. Run a 12/2wg cable from the "LOAD" side of each device, and if you feed split duplex outlets from the circuit (as is done in Canada), you will have to remove the neutral tab between the silver screws as well as the hot tab between the brass-colored screws.
Best regards, Bob
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Geez, what size boxes are you using for a typical, middle-of-the-run outlet with 12/2 in, 12/2 in, 12/2 out, 12/2 out and a device?
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HA HA Budys Here wrote:

I wouldn't string 'em together like that. But if I did, a 3.5" deep box might handle it.
I'd wire every other duplex outlet on alternate legs of the circuit, or else I'd put a GFCI for every device and never run anything off the LOAD screws. If I *needed* a split duplex outlet somewhere, I'd make sure it was an end.
Bob
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There are some tricks that might make it possible. It'd certainly be painful. In Canada, you'd probably not be using 12ga at least.

Not using split duplexes for kitchen counter outlets is not an option in Canada. They _must_ be split.
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Geez Chris, are they that inflexible? How about 2 duplexes in a 2-gang box, would the 2 tops need ckt #1 and the 2 bottoms need ckt #2?
Otherwise, I'd use a 4" square 1900 box with a 1 gang plaster ring to make it easier to work with 2 sets of 12/2 NM cable.
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HA HA Budys Here wrote:

How many countertop outlets do you need? Three? Use deep boxes and extra-heavy-duty backwired devices (because they are easy to work with.) Two 12/2 cables in and one 12/2 cable out of an extra deep 2x4" box -- each box feeds out the opposite leg of the circuit. Then these two outfeed cables feed into the third outlet box which is a dead end.
Best regards, Bob
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (HA HA Budys Here) wrote in message (Chris Lewis)

In fact, I believe this would not be permitted, because the two outlets are adjacent.
I've put two duplex outlets in a double box in a kitchen; one duplex was ckt#1 and 2, coming from one 14/3, and the other was ckt#3 and 4, on another 14/3. But 3 and 4 also (as allowed) fed another split recep elsewhere in the kitchen, the catch being that it was not "adjacent" to this one. This is permitted.
Each 14/3 went to a pair of linked breakers but the 2-gang box did not have a partition. Perhaps it should've? The inspector didn't ask; in fact he barely stuck his head in long enough to count the outlets.
However, as of maybe a year ago, it is now an approved option to use non-split 20A outlets (the kind with the T-shaped neutral) on #12 wire and 20A breakers, as has been done in the U.S. for a while.
As with the splits, a 20A outlet can feed another one that's not "adjacent".
Now, is there such a thing as a 20A kitchen appliance on the market in the US or Canada? Maybe a fast-boil kettle or a heavy duty mixer?
Chip C Toronto
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I dunno maybe there's something in Canadian code I'm not "getting" here - are you saying it's OK to use #14 awg. wire with 15a circuits for kitchen countertop outlets???
And why use a "barrier" between 2 duplexes? On each duplex you've got opposing legs from the single-phase service... You have a 220v potential in each side of a barrier just like you'd have 220v potential difference within each compartment.
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I've never seen a kitchen appliance (other than permanent wire) in Canada that would need a 20A circuit.
Americans don't "do" electric kettles. Most electric kettles you find in the US are gifts from Canadians ;-)
High power electric kettles is a British thing (eg: 20A at 240V). Man those things boil water fast! ;-)

Absolutely. Canadians do their counter top outlets with split duplex 15A receptacles - 30A at 120V available at each outlet. Americans (usually) do their counter top outlets with unsplit 20A receptacles - 20A at 120V available at each outlet.
20A 120V circuits with receptacles are virtually unknown here. Partially because, until recently, those 15A/20A receptacles you use down there were illegal here, and a 15A plug doesn't fit into a 20A outlet. Hence, ordinary outlets and lighting are always 15A, not 20A, and 14ga is far more common.
There are times where I'd blow an American style 20A counter outlet, but not ours. For example, running the 1200W toaster and electric kettle (1500W) off the same outlet...

Ah, but you forget, those duplex receptacles were fed from _two_ dual breaker circuits. A total of four circuits feeding one box. CEC rules are stricter about multiple "untied" circuits going to a box. For strict legality, either those four breakers needed to be tied together, OR, there be a metal barrier between the two outlets.
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snipped-for-privacy@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote in message (Chip C)

I knew this, actually; I tried to buy a kettle in a Wal-Mart in California and they didn't know what I was talking about. Heck, Canadian Tire has a whole aisle full of them.
But still, is no manufacturer taking advantage of the 20A kitchen circuits with a big microwave, or dough mixer, or 50-slot toaster, or whole turkey fryer, or anything?

I've heard of those, if I get to the UK one of these years maybe I'll smuggle one back and rig it up.
I knew a fellow who got an Italian espresso machine to work using two 120V plugs on different phases. I think I'd prefer to put in a 240V outlet and re-wire the cord...I wonder if that would violate code? If you counted it as a "dedicated appliance" circuit that just happened to be over a kitchen counter, would an inspector pass it?
Chip C Toronto
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Appliances suitable for _residential_ kitchens don't need anywhere near that much power. How many people do you know could make use of a 50 slot toaster in their home kitchen? ;-)
Dough mixers are only a few hundred watts. The biggest one you'd expect to see in a kitchen (ie: a restaurant-size Hobart) I think is still under 1500W.
A UK-style electric kettle is the only portable appliance I could think of that would be reasonable to expect in a residential kitchen that needs more than about 1500W.
Electric grills maybe. You direct wire the bigger ones (ie: Jennair cooktops).

I don't think you'd have the slightest problem with a 240V outlet on a kitchen counter, especially a single receptacle device for something specific. In the US, it'd have to be GFCI'd (expensive device), but not here.
Two plugs on different phases? They'd have heart failure.
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Chris Lewis wrote:

Are you sure about that? Or would it be exempted because either (a) dedicated outlet, or (b) not 110V? My code book is not handy, and it's 10 years ago and I know they tightened up the rules since then.
Thanks, regards, Bob
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