When we switch on the A/C (or just the fan), the unit inside the house comes on but the outside fan does not run. Importantly when the A/C unit is switched on or off, we can hear the "clicking" sound in the outside unit. Also power seems to be coming to the outside unit (this was checked by a handyman) but fan does not turn on.
Air being blown through the vents in the house can hardly be felt and it is not cool.
Any ideas what could be wrong. The handyman who came to check the unit didn't have all the diagnostic tools but he felt that maybe either the capacitor or the compressor is defective. He says he cannot say for certain yet and is going to bring more diagnostic tools day after tomorrow.
From the description I have given above, can someone suggest the reasons for the problem ? Also, I think the handyman guy may be trying to fleece me. Is there something I can look over his shoulder or are there any questions I can ask him that can help figure out the real problem (and prevent him from unnecessarily replacing the part that doesn't need replacement) ?
The fan capacitor is burned out. This is easy to check and takes no special "diagnostic tools." A simple volt meter will do.
The fan motor is burned out.
Something else
Definitely watch over his shoulder for ANYTHING. AC repairmen are notoriously dirty. I really don't care if it pisses off the ones in this group, it is a fact proven time and again.
Do you have a VOM meter? You can get one at Walmart for less than $20 and check these things yourself. To easily check the cap, you want one with a needle on it, not a digital one. You can do it with a digital meter but it is easier to see on an analog meter. Many times when the cap fails, it will bulge out. That is easy to see. If not, you have to place your meter to read ohms and place the leads across the two terminals of the cap. Caps behave funny when you check them like this. What you want to see is the needle swing all the way over to almost full scale then slowly lower back to the other end of the scale. This is showing the cap charging with the voltage output by the meter. If it doesn't move or swings over and stays, the cap is bad.
As for the fan motor itself, poke a pencil through the grill and see if it turns freely. If it doesn't, the bearings could be burned up. If it does, it could still be burnt up but it is to much typing to tell you how to check that.
My advice is that if the cap checks ok, the motor is likely toast. If the cap is bad, the motor is likely fine so don't let him tell you to replace teh motor if the cap is bad until he shows you that it doesn't work with the new cap in there.
Pre-1a. 240 volt line voltage is actually not present at outdoor unit.
Pre-1b. Wire burnt off of load side of contactor.
If you don't trust him because of something he's done or some misleading practice, get another opinion.
Not to plagerize another poster's phrase, but blow me. The fact of the matter is that humans are notoriously dirty. It's present in every trade, every aspect of your life. I really don't care what your opinion is on the matter - I'm content with my moral fabric and need not stoop to hasty generalizations of any group of humans.
Amazing you didn't tell the OP to discharge the capacitor before checking it with that $20 meter from Wal-Mart. I hope he lives to see the sun come up tomorrow. Those leads are Cat III rated on those right?
Agreed, if you want to check the bearings in the fan motor, kill the power to the unit and spin away.
My advice is to use a licensed repairman that won't just throw parts at it or advise you to stick tinker toy meter leads into a 240 volt panel.
Many humans are notoriously dirty but the percentage definitely increases as you get into the AC repairmen, auto mechanics, lawyers and car salesmen. This isn't to say there aren't dirty people in any field but we aren't discussing those fields right now. The poster was asking an AC question.
And yet you felt compelled to respond. Why was that?
Wrong. The OP stated they heard a clicking noise and that their handyman 'felt' that the fan and or compressor was faulty.
BEGIN ORIGINAL POST QUOTE When we switch on the A/C (or just the fan), the unit inside the house comes on but the outside fan does not run. Importantly when the A/C unit is switched on or off, we can hear the "clicking" sound in the outside unit. Also power seems to be coming to the outside unit (this was checked by a handyman) but fan does not turn on.
Air being blown through the vents in the house can hardly be felt and it is not cool.
Any ideas what could be wrong. The handyman who came to check the unit didn't have all the diagnostic tools but he felt that maybe either the capacitor or the compressor is defective. He says he cannot say for certain yet and is going to bring more diagnostic tools day after tomorrow. END ORINGIN POST QUOTE
Wrong. A statement like that merely indicates that you are a fool. I pray for your sake that you don't try that $20 meter out on 600+ volt applications or you could very well wind up a dead fool.
Had you read my reply without your head stuck in your lower quadrant you would understand that I recommended knowing the proper procedure for checking the capacitor with an analog meter. You left off the first step and I would label it one of the most important. I could care less what grade of tool you care to use, I am fairly certain that either you or I could check the components of this system with a $20 meter. I just choose to trust my life to a bit higher standard.
YOU are the one that posted an anal response and suggested throwing parts at the problem until it's fixed. The OP should be more concerned if you showed up to do the job than the incompetent handyman they already have. To answer your last question to me, more than enough.
OK, fair enough. Check for 240 at the condensor, no biggie. Easily done with my $20 meter.
OK, I'll bet you $1,000 I can buy a meter at Walmart and chekc the voltage on a 600 volt AC circuit with it. Where do you wish to meet, and bring your cash? Do you even know what high impdence imputs are?
So, you're saying I'm right. Thanks.
Excuse me? I said test the cap and test the motor. I didn't say try a different cap or motor.
Hate to disappoint but I am not in that business and would not EVER choose to be in that business. The work is much to hard and hot and dirty. I'll work at an air-conditioned desk and make much more money, thanks.
A friend of mine had that problem. He went outside and picked up a little stick from the yard and put it through the grill and just moved the fan inside.....the fan started. Am sure this is not your problem? Just a true story. Dan.
I will say one thing here and you can take it or not.
The Walmart VOM that they sell for $12.99 will read up to 750 volts and the meter will be good to keep any out sparking down because of the insulated propertys of the meter it'self. Now if you look in the instruction and you will see the wires are only rated for
300 volts because they will tell you to not use the meter in very high voltage equipment because of electrical sparking that can occure on high voltage service. These meters are made in china and they don't care about your well being. They know this : all the people that will buy this meter will not be testing voltages above 240 volts because of residentiual service of houses and the 480 and 500 volt systems will be commercial equipment and they will not be testing this high voltage. By you saying that you would test a 480 volt service with a VOM that has wires on it that is only rated for 300 volt. Well you need to keep your present job because you may not be long for this world testing the 480 volt system with the 300 volt rated wires. You only make one mistake with 480 volt service and it will be your last. You don't have to touch 480 volt service wires for they will travel through the air and hit you.
Any Commercial Electrician or HVAC service man that works on 480 volt system. they will not buy their VOM and equipment at Walmarts for they like living too much.
I hate Walmart, and would not recommend anyone to buy anything from (Walmart) SlaveMart. But,...
1) Internal resistance of the voltmeter is very high, and this means very low current passing threw its circuits!
2) If a voltmeter resistance (impedance) is low, it would not be able to measure voltage correctly.
3) Low current = no sparking (or very little) unless you short something, or voltmeter probs are bad.
4) Low current = no wires will be melted when measured voltage.
5) When they say wires are rated at 300 volts, this means when connected in parallel to measure current.
6) Every wire has resistance. If you VOM allows you to measure 20 Amps they computed based on the internal
resistance of those wires that 300 volts at 20amps would be safe....
7) In any case, you will be fine measuring 480V with it.
M
yes, call an a/c guy and not a handyman.. i can work on a/c units and there are things that i cant fix, but a handy man????? run the guy up the street....
Ahh...this is interesting. Most AC repairmen, thats MOST, have a clue. The ones that dont are the ones that you hear about, and those are the ones that need to be removed from the trade, altho, perhaps up to 60% of the bullshit artists could be improved IF the person would simply learn a bit more. We hire and fire many over the course of a year, simply because they have learned bad traits and are either unwilling, or unable to relearn the correct way to do things. Owners, and working owners like myself, tend to give a damn about the customer...while the tech that is sent out is NORMALLY underpaid, overworked and is only there to collect a check and try to gain his 4 to 8 years of field experence to go solo.
Its a compound problem...the companies that have the biggest bunch of hacks tend to underpay their workers, the customers do not want to pay $200 an hour for idiots, the company cant afford to keep training and retraining the techs...the customers suffer...the company does not...of course...its kinda like that with a bunch of guys that sit around in an conditioned office...sitting on their ass, waiting for 5pm....funny how tho, when that AC quits, and its 105F out, they will be all over the phone calling those same companies that they want to slam in here.
5pm?? LOL..thats nothing but a lunch hour for a few of the better companies...try getting up at 4am, getting on the road by 6am, and if you are fortunate, you are finishing your last call of the day about
11pm....welcome to the life of a working owner, who pays his guys above average wages (up to 40 an hour) and understands that we are considered dirt...till your unit quits..
Perhaps the same reason you took the time to try to impress us and tell the world that you think you can make more money sitting behind a desk...and, you can.. Most TECHS are underpaid. As a company owner, I am as well...owning a small HVAC company was listed on 20-20 as the #5 way to become a millionare in under 5 years....and of course, thats if you follow the paths given out by the hack companies...you know..charge, charge and charge some more.
Your statement was blanket, and wrong. Lord knows I could make more money if I actually charged for all we do....:)..but then, you also need to realize, that tech that comes to your home from the huge company across town, probably could care less if he has a job in the morning, and THAT is what the help we are getting is looking like more and more. Someone once blasted me in here for the way I test my guys...yet, I test them in a manner that would be in the homeowners interest...funny how the doublestandard applies in here...
1st problem: Handymen normally do not have a clue to what is wrong with AC units, and we, as professionals, LOVE to get our hands on units that the average "handyman" has worked on.
A clicking noise can indicate that you have a heat pump, and the reversing valve is indeed working, OR, it can indicate that the contactor is closing, but the contacts are burned, or an insect is crushed between the contactor, not allowing current to flow.
If its a split system, air hardly being felt...humm...when was the last time you had your filters changed? Evap coil and blower cleaned andserviced???
First, get a real tech...
Second, it could be..in no particular order:
Out of R22--Low pressure switch is not allowing 24VAC control voltage to close contactor. Contactor bad, or burned Contactor has an insect between the contact points If its a heat pump, defrost control board may be bad, depending on model. If its a Rheem/Ruud unit, the high pressure switch might have tripped, not allowing 24VAC current to close relay. If the fan is the only thing not running, meaning the compressor IS starting, either a bad cap, or fan motor. If the fan motor is indeed bad, the cap should be replaced at the same time. Could be, not likely, but COULD be a bad stat...very rare...perhaps only 1% of the time will we actually find a bad thermostat.
Also, anyone can diagnose that problem with a meter, and a manifold. There are no super special tools needed on a problem this simple. It sounds like you need to seriously get rid of this guy, before he creates more problems for you, or even worse, screws up and gets hurt...ten to one he is not insured to work on such, and unless he is EPA licenced, legally he can not work on your unit for profit... If your state requires an HVAC card, or licence to work on units, and he is just a handyman and not a licenced HVAC tech, then you may not have any recourse should he damage anything.
Once he gets the unit running, he will probably tell you it needs R22, or freon. IF this happens, ask him why. If he says its low, ask him how he knows. In order to know for sure, he needs to know the superheat, or subcool, depending on the metering device in the airhandler at the evap coil. If he shows you the manifold and the low side is showing under 58PSI, then you should automatically check the airflow over the EVAP coil at the air handler. If the coil is dirty, or the blower is dirty, then the reduced airflow will translate to reduced heat transfer to the coil, thus lowering the pressures. Once that is properly cleaned, and airflow is restored, and the fan speed is set up properly for your ductwork (yes..thta needs to be checked as well) then, and ONLY then, can he take the 4 temp readings he needs to take to properly be able to read the manifold, and translate the pressures, and temps into one number we call superheat, or in the case of a TEV metered evap, subcool.
IF, and thats IF it does actually need R22..then, if he brings out a 30lb jug of 22, and starts to hook up, and you do not see a platform scale, you can tell him that unless he is weighing in the charge, you are not going to pay for it. I dont care what they say, he CAN NOT tell you how much he put in without a SCALE. The jug of R22 will need to be placed on it...allowed to settle since the liquid will be moving around, and the scale set to ZERO. The tare weight needs to be removed from the readout, set to zero, and as he puts in the refrigerant, the scale will read the amount of R22 being introduced to the system. Also..about this time I would be setting up the vid camera...as he is installing the refrigerant, I would then ask to see his EPA ident card..:)
No scale = no pay. Period.
If the units over 20 years old, and you get a tech that suggests replacement of the unit..(NOT your handyman hack) .dont dismiss him like a con artist. Many times it is actually cheaper for you to have a new efficient system than it is to throw parts at an old 6 SEER at best unit. Make sure however, they can tell you what is wrong with the unit in question.
So what's that got to do with arcing over through your body from the leads? NOTHING!
Another miss statement. An older analog meter of medium impedance. (there were really no LOW Z models to speak of) would still read fine.
This is only a factor in an electronic circuit where the impedance of a meter could load down the circuit. This would never happen in a
120/220 volt situation like were talking about. A low voltage digital circuit, maybe.
There are probably old school techs still out there with simpson 260's.
The potential is between he leads. just because the meter is drawing low current des not mean the leads cannot arc.
I don't think you would catch any industrial electrician measuring 480 volts with a cheap meter. (or without proper safety gloves and goggles). And you sure won't be measuring 480 in a normal private residence
Checking a cap with a normal DVM is NOT a 100% method of checking. The only truly proper way is with a cap checker. A cap checker checks ESR, Capacitance, leakage, and maybe breakdown voltage. Non of which a normal VOM or DVM can do. If think you can accurately check the above with a wallmart meter please tell me how.... With a DVM, you can see if its shorted, or that it will charge to some degree. That's it. Some higher end DVM's might also give you a capacitance reading, but non of the other specialized tests.
For a homeowner that is NOT familiar with electricity, it all comes down to safety. Even 120 volts can kill. I think some of the people that know better here have visions of someone taking the outdoor unit apart with tools laying around and the main 220v breaker still energized. All it takes is once slip. Believe me, even those who know better get shocked or have accidents on occasion.
You should feel lucky that a few of the HVAC pros answer questions here. A well versed technically proficient homeowner can do some of these tests and repairs. But the average Joe who is electricity deficient should NOT. I think the key is anyone who does not already own a meter and know how to use it should steer clear from a project like this.
Usually there is a disconnect switch located near the outside unit. If it has a circuit breaker in it, turn the breaker off and then on again to reset. If it has fuses, replace them. Also check your main circuit breaker or fuse panel for the same thing: A tripped breaker or blown fuse.
When the air conditioning is turned off and then back on again without enough time for the pressure to equalize, the fuse or circuit breaker to the outside condenser will blow. After turning off your air conditioning, you should always wait a few minutes before turning it back on again.
In response to another poster: I do get get dirty in my job, but get compensated well for it and I am not worried about my job being outsourced to a low paying, economically developing nation.
I agree, but one must admit that if managed properly the HVAC company can make a decent profit margin and provide quality services. I don't understand why everyone has to think that this trade is the only thing one does. Do none of them invest any money in other ventures or markets?
I replaced an entire condensing unit (that's the thing that sits outside) yesterday that had the exact same problem. The fan would start when you spun it using a stick.
I replaced the entire unit because the existing one was almost 17 years old. That unit had lived a long full life in service to that house.
Sure, the homeowner could have had me replace the motor for about $225 instead of spending $1500 plus on a new condenser, but he felt it was save him money in the long run in energy savings. I call it economies of scale.
When we switch on the A/C (or just the fan), the unit inside the house comes on CY: Yes, the fan on the furnace or air handler.
but the outside fan does not run. CY: OK, that's not good.
Importantly when the A/C unit is switched on or off, we can hear the "clicking" sound in the outside unit. CY: The click is a relay which is powered by the inside furnace or air handler. You can pull the disconnect for the outside unit, and the relay will still click.
Also power seems to be coming to the outside unit (this was checked by a handyman) but fan does not turn on. CY: Wonder if he checked for power before or after the relay?
Air being blown through the vents in the house can hardly be felt and it is not cool. CY: No outside unit run, no cool. Simple matter.
Any ideas what could be wrong. The handyman who came to check the unit didn't have all the diagnostic tools but he felt that maybe either the capacitor or the compressor is defective. He says he cannot say for certain yet and is going to bring more diagnostic tools day after tomorrow. CY: You didn't tell us if the compressor was running. The options that come to mind are
1) Outside unit not getting power
2) OUtside unit getting power, but not the full 220 volt circuit
3) Bad relay
4) Bad capacitor for the fan
5) Bad fan motor, or dry berrings in fan motor
6) I reserve the right to add more options as more information is presented.
From the description I have given above, can someone suggest the reasons for the problem ? Also, I think the handyman guy may be trying to fleece me. Is there something I can look over his shoulder or are there any questions I can ask him that can help figure out the real problem (and prevent him from unnecessarily replacing the part that doesn't need replacement) ? CY: At this point, we would like to know if the compressor runs, or if both the compressor and fan are not running.
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