20 amp circuit/14-2 wire?

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Bullshit. Using 14/2 in a 20A circuit is wrong. No two ways about that. It's a violation of the NEC.

That's been explained thoroughly already: the maximum overcurrent protection permitted by the NEC for 14-gauge copper circuit conductors is 15A. Period.

OK, fine, we'll assume you're right about that. That does not change the facts, which are: 1) 14/2 on a 20A circuit is a violation of the NEC. 2) The NEC in some places (many, actually) carries the force of law. 3) It is therefore illegal in those places to use 14/2 on a 20A circuit. 4) Just because Louisiana allows it, does not mean it's allowable everywhere.

Hellooooooooo..... Earth to Turtle.... *YOU* are the one who made the mistake, out of ignorance of the laws in other jurisdictions. *You* made the blanket statement that it's not illegal, ASSuming that what was true where you live was true everywhere else. News flash: it's not.

False. In many places, the NEC is adopted by law, in its entirety, as the electrical code for that jurisdiction, which means that _in_that_jurisdiction_ the NEC *is* the law.

It doesn't matter what the laws are in Louisiana. All that matters is what the laws are where the work is being done. You stated that using 14/2 on a 20A circuit is perfectly legal. This may or may not be true, depending on where the dwelling in question is located -- but the point is, YOU DON'T KNOW. And therefore you shouldn't be giving advice like that when you don't know what you're talking about.
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Were i work i am the law and i will do it any way i want ,And the way i do it it allways seams to be right.!
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This is Turtle.
Yes I will have to say I'm sorry for making a blanket statement on this but I was think a little local code enforcement here in Louisiana. The point i was making was the NEC is a code and not a law everywhere. The NEC is a code and if a state or city wants to make it a law. they can but it will come from the state or city laws to enforce it and there is nobody with NEC on their shirt will be in the group enforcing it. Also your waisting you time explaining the NEC code to me for I have to follow it to the letter for I'm ''For Hire'' and everytime i have to run a circuit for the hvac business I have to check it out in the Ugly Book first and then if need be the NEC. And yes a 14/2 wire on a 20 amp circuit or breaker is a no no.
TURTLE
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Fine. You are aware that there is more to the world than Louisiana, right?

It is the law in a lot of places. The point I was making is that you were acting like it's not the law anywhere, and that's just not so. Glad you realize that now.

Thank you. That is what I've been trying to tell you...
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Helpful hint of the day: Stay far away from Louisiana. Stay even futher away from Turtle or anything he has ever worked on.

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Joe Fabeitz wrote:

I've lived enough of my life in East Texas that I think I'm pretty safe in saying this. Louisiana will be quite happy to have you stay away. ;-)
Best regards, Bob
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This is Turtle.
I don't know about that. We have some of the best idiots on the earth and hold good jobs in the state government here. He might fit right in there.
TURTLE
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This is Turtle.
You don't read well for the word on the law were in respect to a home owner doing the wiring and not a person for hire doing it.
Now i can't disagree with you on Louisiana being screwed up on Codes and regulation of this nature for Louisiana's codes and regulations are about 20 years behind the other states. Let me give you one. Here in the town I live in just about 5 years ago issued electric licences to the electricians working in this city and before this time there was NONE. For referrence here. Oakdale , Louisiana 71463 and a POP. of 9K .
Also you show good promise in being a Troll. Have you tried it yet?
TURTLE
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This is Turtle.
I don't know about giving out bad advise, but IN the state of Louisiana a '' home own '' [ Not Public anything there ] can wire anything he wants and tell the inspector to kiss off. Now he can't rent it, have a business there, open to the public, or have any meeting of a group there at all or he comes under public regulations.
Now in other states you can have a code set for the Parish / County that states something different as to what you can do. I totally agree with you if you have these regulation. Louisiana DOESN'T HAVE IT and a home owner can do what he wants with his house. Now we are kind of backwards in the regulation business but Them's the gritts!
The only permitt there is in Oakdale, Louisiana 71463 on electric work there is if any work costing more than $1,000.00 + or a complete change out of meter pan and switch box you should get a permitt and have it inspected to see it meets the NEC code. Other than this they have nothing else. I'm speaking about my part of the country and not your. When you start stating regulations in your area , there is 10 other versions of what you say about your area that does not apply in other places. There is no one part of the country that will have the same regulation word for word but each will have there spin on it. Now I'm speaking about home owner only doing work and not trademan doing work. Trademen have to stick to the NEC to the letter.
Now if you would like to know. Your talking to a Louisiana State Electrical contractor in the HVAC and some Electric work if I like to. As the Contractor, i know what I can do and not do as to NEC as for hire and homeowner come under a different set of rules in the state of Louisiana. What is not good in New York might be good in Louisiana for Home owners that is.
If you don't catch the words Home Owner in this conversation you will not understand anything of what I'm saying here.
TURTLE
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This is Turtle.
There could be section of the country or citys that have a jail term for a home owner wiring his lights in his bed room the wrong way but in the state of Louisiana there is no jail time stated for wiring your own home wrong. He can wire it anyway he wants it. I have never heard of or know of any home owner ever spent a day in jail for wiring his own house like he wanted it. If you had a jail term for screwing up your own house. Half the population of the U.S. would be in jail. You can't tell a home owner how he is to wire his house unless he is using a contractor or electrician to do the work.
Here is one for you. Call up the city inspector of your city and tell him that your neighbor wired his bed room lites wrong and not to code. Then tell the inspector to go do something about it. He will say well who was the electrician or contractor on that job and you say the owner of the house did it. the inspector will tell you awwwww I'll try and talk to him and get him to correct it , but if he throws me out. I can't do anything about it. Try this for real and see what happens.
Here is another one for you. Did you know that a home owner can work on his freon hvac system all he wants and the E.P.A. can't say a word to him. He can be using freon 22 to blow his drive way off and you can't charge him with nothing at all. Now you may talk him into stop blowing the freon in the air if you can talk him out of it. Only E.P.A. licenced professionals or companys can go to jail for violations. Now without licence you can go to jail if your out working on for hire jobs and he don't own the house or property. He has to be working on somebody elses property to go to jail.
Check up on what a home owner can do and get back with me.
TURTLE
Now if a electrician for hire wired it wrong or not to code. They will burnt him at the stake.
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I never said anything about jail time; that's your own invention. But the fact is that in some jurisdictions, there can be pretty heavy fines. And I assure you that in those jurisdictions, the code enforcement authorities very certainly *can* tell a homeowner how to wire his house; they can also tell him he isn't allowed to touch it at all because he doesn't know what he's doing.
[snip]

Educate yourself to a new fact: what's true in your particular locality is not necessarily true everywhere. Just because _where_you_live_ there are no legal penalties (as far as you know) for a homeowner who violates the NEC, does *not* mean it's that way in other places.
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This is Turtle.
I toally agree with you on this but Louisiana Home Owners can do what they want. Someday they will get around to making the NEC a regulation to follow by home owner but for not they do as they please. We are kind of backwards here.
TURTLE
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So what? Unless the OP lives in Louisiana, that makes no difference. In a lot of places, homeowners can *not* do whatever they want.
And I'll bet that's not true everywhere in Louisiana, either. I don't know one way or the other, but I'll bet that your bigger cities have adopted the NEC, or something similar, as law, and homeowners there are legally required to follow it.
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This is Turtle.
There one point here that will make Louisiana different from any other state of the Union. Louisiana has Nepolianic Law which is left over from when it was owned by other countrys and was bought by the U.S.A. All the other states adopted the Common Wealth Law which is normal to most but Louisiana stuck with Nepolianic Law which is deferrent form any other state. There was all kind of laws passed and enforce as to homes, land , and personal property but Louisiana still has Nepolianic Law which states that a owner of a home or where he lives at can do what he wants with the house or land that he lives at. Now for the city of New Orleans there is very stiff regulations of the NEC code and you follow the letter of the NEC to the Tee. In a city like this with heavy regulations on everything there, It still says by Nepolianic Law that a home owner can do what he wants with his house as he pleases. The only way this regulation will come into play is the home owner calls a craftman of some trade to do the work. If so the state and parish regulation go into play. The Craftman and the home owner both agreed to abide by the NEC code and regulation when this happens. The seperating point between the Code and regulation is the hiring of anybody to work at your home. If you hire a kid down the block to come help you. Your hiring a '' for hire worker '' and come under the NEC and regulations. It's hard to get by the regulations in Louisiana but it can be done.
The only way a home owner can do any electric work and not be covered by the NEC and regulations is He himself alone does the work and has NOBODY for hire on his land at the time of the work. There was a fellow in New Orleans that did some electric work on his house and was reported to the city inspector. They could say a word to him but he messed up. He installed a bunch of new circuits for a back room and when he called a sheet rock fellow over to redo the walls that he had messed up where he put new receptical in at. This brought in the NEC and regulations for he had FOR HIRE people working on the job. He then had to get a licenced Electrician to redo the mess up's and get the city permitts for the work.
Now here is a good one for you when you have Nepolianic law in a state. There is a state law still on the books that states that if you sell a item to a person and the estimated life of the item is 20 years. You will warrent it for 20 years. A example of this is If I sell a HVAC system to a home owner and the estimated life of the HVAC system is 17 years [ State Farm states Estimated life of a hvac system is 17 years ] I will by Nepolianic Law will have to warrant it for 17 years. I will have to repair it, Make good on it, or Give them their money back. I know of nobody ever using this law but it is sitting there on the books.
I again Totally agree with you that the NEC regulation should be followed to the Letter but there is exceptions in different places of the country.
TURTLE
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wrote:

Redo it. Right.
Jeff
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breaker.
The only other thought is to change the circuit breaker from a 20 to an 15 and you will be fine.
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I did exactly the same thing. (Only in my case I was sorta innocent. I extended a circuit that had only one 15a outlet on it, so I naturally assumed it complied with code and was a 15a circuit. wrong...)
Anyhow, I couldn't see how they could ever use more than 15a on the circuit and replacing the 14 would be a PITA, so I changed to a 15a breaker.
If you can't do that you will have to upgrade the wire. Sorry.
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deloid wrote:

It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets.
If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch)
All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?
Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob
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zxcvbob wrote:

(No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-) The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here. Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions.
Jim
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