15 vs 20 amp circuits

[Pete C.]

He could use the receptacle format receptacle-less GFCIs, which are also much cheaper than GFCI breakers.

[pawlowsk002]

t4:

A double cheeseburger, a basket of chili fries, coleslaw, and three cups of strong black coffee. Not only does this order have magnitude, it has direction. I will spare you the gruesome details. Let's just say that 1.6 gallons just won't always do.

Aaaanyway, there's nothing wrong with Edison circuits if they're not stupid. Stupid, for instance, would be an Edison circuit that splits

10 feet from the panel. Well, we're not going to save much power or material there, but we do keep the potential for 240v across the light bulbs if somebody didn't screw down that crummy drugstore wirenut real good,so there is a bright side, a flash of genius, even.

The advantages of a multiwire or Edison circuit, for those who might want to know, include material cost and energy savings from less voltage drop. I see no reason to avoid them, where conditions are favorable.

There is really nothing stopping any homeowner who really wants to do his electrical work right from going out and learning about all the different legitimate arrangements one might find in an electrical box. I suggest PRACTICAL ELECTRICAL WIRING as a start. One should not wire with nothing more than "white wire, black wire" to go by.

Cordially yours: G P

[pawlowsk002]

PC:

That would look extremely icky.

G P

[Pete C.]

Icky yes, but still could save a fair amount of money. If GFCI breakers were the ~$10 more than regular breakers that they logically should be, then it wouldn't be an issue.

[Pete C.]

Yep, plenty of adequate reference material available at the Depot / Lowe's book section as well as *gasp* your local library. Pretty much any of those books would even explain how to properly wire a "4-way" switch arrangement (yes, 4).

[Chris Friesen]

You sure? By my count that would be six wires and four caps, which under local code would require a 15 cu in box.

Chris

[bud--]

I don't see the hole clearly in the jpg. Along the edge of many strippers is a hole that does not seem to have a purpose. Put the tip of the wire in the hole and twist. As Dan said - very fast.

-- bud--

[Mike Payne]

Abolutely I understand the concept of order of magnitude. When I was doing my wiring I found it an orders of magnitude easier to use 14 rather than 12. I didn't say faster, I said easier.

mike

[alvinamorey]

I agree to a limited degree. By "limited" I mean it depends on the distance from the source (breaker box). If the sump pump is 10 ft. from the box, it really dont matter. If it's 100 ft. it will. Being on a DEDICATED circuit means it DOES have it's own protection. Actually, the house I used to live in, I had a sump pump. I put a single handybox above it and bought one of those cover plates that consist of a switch and fuse holder on one piece. That supplied the single outlet for the pump. I would put 10A fuses in it. (they are probably hard to find these days).

A large motor is another matter. Use large wire for anything over 3/4 HP. Of course many of those are 220V.

[Pete C.]

Ideally, use 220V on any motor with that option since it allows you to use smaller wire and have less voltage drop and better starts with less light dimming.

[Chris Lewis]

Who said anything about _one_ countertop appliance? With a Canadian split, you can run a 1200W toaster and 1200W electric kettle (or electric frypan or...) simultaneously on a single duplex receptacle. No need to install something as potentially "industrial looking" as a quad.

Minimum Canadian code (minimal counter length) was 60A (four 15A circuits arranged as two split duplex receptacles). Now it's 40A (two 20A unsplit receptacles).

[Not counting builtin microwave either - that's supposed to be a dedicated circuit, just like yours. Doesn't have to be 20A tho. Fridge, garburator, dishwasher each a dedicated circuit too. With some minor permissible addons (clocks etc). CEC is stricter on dedicated kitchen circuits than the NEC. Or at least it was.]

You can do the same trick with splits - remembering that the neutrals on the split have to be split too (four current carrying conductors into the box) - you have to split _both_ the neutral and hots on the line side of the GFCI outlet pair. But that starts to get obnoxious. When the kitchen gets reno'd, I _may_ splurge on dual GFCI breakers. And make 'em 20A while I'm at it ;-) Same as your quads, but in just one receptacle ;-)

[Pete C.]

I like "industrial looking", and at any rate, it doesn't have to be a "quad", it can simply be another duplex a few feet away on a separate circuit.

It's not really a built in microwave, just a dedicated shelf space for a regular one. Fridge is indeed another separate 20A circuit. Disposal and dishwasher each share (separately) one of the 20A circuits feeding a "quad".

I like my quads, particularly with the fixed use items in my kitchen that take up outlets - wall wart for cat water fountain dish, wall wart for cordless phone base, and night light - there go three outlet spaces right there.

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

You are correct. But I stand by my statement - 220 is NO SURPRISE if you have both a red and a black wire.

[Doug Miller]

There, we certainly agree.

[wmbjkREMOVE]

Obviously one should take into account potential expansion, but that's not a good reason to overdo *everything*. You're basically repeating an extremely overused Usenet argument - "what about the next guy". Doesn't make any sense in a lot of cases. For example, I have something like 2 dozen pot lights, each on it's own circuit. If this house ever has another owner, and they decide to add outlets into the ceiling and plug in 100 times the wattage on some of those circuits... But wait... isn't it just as likely that the next guy will end up in a wheelchair? We should build ramps, etc.

You might do some simple experiments with #12 and #14 wire. Pretend you're a novice, and nick the wire when you strip it. Wrap it around a screw connection, and then bend it back and forth like a novice does when he's learning why he shouldn't try to stuff 5' of wire in a 1' box. :-) You'll find that the 14 breaks easier than the 12.

I probably used 1500 ft. of 14, and a lot less of everything else. Everybody giving advice has something they think is worth "just a few extra bucks", or "just a little extra work".

Wayne

[xPosTech]

What are you growing under those pot lights? ;)

[willshak]

Chia pets. :-)

[Pete C.]

More typically, I'm the first guy, and a few years later, the next guy. I'm just as likely to expand or add something as some future owner. As for the ramp thing, there are plenty of folks pushing for all new construction to include such things. I don't agree with them by a long shot, but ramps do come in handy for us otherwise able bodied folks who tend to move a lot of heavy stuff around.

I don't have any 14 ga solid wire. Everything I do is 12 ga or larger.

If you used that much 14 ga, you presumably have a larger than average house, a poorly located main panel, or other unusual configuration of things.

[no spam]

I've got a good one. I discovered, BEFORE I connected the power to the breaker box, that someone connected the 220V water heater by using 2 15A breakers. Really confused me when I had an extra breaker in the box.

[no spam]

I wouldn't expect to need to flip two breakers to kill a single outlet. I'd discover it because I check to see if the wires are hot after I flip a breaker and before I start messing around with things. A multimeter, neon tester or if all fails I short the wires I would rather have a shower of sparks than get 'bitten'.