New gas furnace/AC recommendations?

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On 12/15/2010 5:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy. I've looked into buying some items over the net but the shipping eats up any savings in purchase price.
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.
If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces can be shipped cheap as well.
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On 12/15/2010 6:53 PM, Home Guy wrote:

I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)
TDD
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:13:45 -0600, The Daring Dufas

I got a good price on my >600 pound Unisaw a couple of years ago, with cheap shipping too (Amazon Free Super Saver). ...and no sales tax. ;-)
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:30:48 -0600, The Daring Dufas

In my business the hard to get stuff (and stuff I could save a bundle on) is generally small and light making the shipping pretty reasonable unless it comes UPS from the USA - where the brokerage kills ya.
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 18:17:20 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
OK - I've got some numbers.
I dug out the handy Amprobe and checked the current draw on my Tempstar ntv6050fb furnace.
On low speed circulate it is drawing .21 amps at 116 volts AC. When it calls for heat and the Eductor fan is on high, and the hot plate ignitor is on, it draws just over 2.2 amps. When the gas lights and the ignitor shuts down, it draws 2.0 amps, and with the furnace running normally, the unit draws all of 1.5 amps. Thats about 175 VA.
Yesterday the furnace ran 6 hours and 17 minutes, and so far today 4 hour and 12 minutes. Yesterday was a pretty cold and windy day. If it runs 6.25 hours a day at 175.3 va, that is just a hair ovr 1kWh per day, and the low speed blower, running the other 17.75 hours at 34 va, consumes another .6 kWh.
IF the furnace cycles 20 times (I have not counted, but I figured I'd guess on the high side) the eductor and ignitor, running aprox 1.5 minute for each cycle, draw another .7 amps,for another 0.3 ah or .035 kWh per day - for a total of something just over 1.6 kWh per day.(48kWh per month) At 7.5 cents per kWh for the first 1000 per month, and 8.5 cents per kWh from there up, over and above the roughly $16 per month "distribution fee" from Waterloo North Hydro, if I didn't use electricity for anything else to spread the distribution fee over, it would cost me about $20 a month to run the furnace. Since I DO use electricity for other things, the incremental cost to run the furnace is only something like $4 per month for the electricity.
A half HP PSC motor, running only with the furnace calling for heat,at 475 va, would consume 93 kWh of power, costing $6.98 a month, just for the blower. If the blower on low speed circulate keeps the temperature more even and the furnace does not need to run as much because of that, the cost for the single speed PSC motor would be higher - possibly approaching $10 per month.
On the other hand, if, as some have theorized, circulating the air looses heat to the outside and/or basement, NOT running the low speed circulating fan would cause the furnace to run less - saving not only the .6kWh, but also some furnace run time.
Anyone with a PSC blower motor on a conventional standing pilot light furnace have an Amprobe and want to check the blower current draw for a sanity check?
I'm just guessing 475 Va running current.
The low speed blower is set at 600 cfm with a .1" static (default) and the heat blower speed is also at default, 0.20" static, with the AC set to 900 cfm at 0.50" static, default for a 2 ton AC according to the installers notes. The default for heat was set by the specified heat rise across the heat exchanger
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On 12/15/2010 8:14 AM, The Home Guy who is clueless about HVAC wrote:

No HVAC company will guarantee any equipment they don't supply. Me and my friends have installed used or new equipment supplied by a customer, usually commercial, with the explicit understand that nothing is under any warranty. You're not going to get any high end name brand equipment unless you go through an authorized dealer. If you do, the manufacturer is going to take action against whoever supplied the equipment when they find out. Your savings are an illusion.
TDD
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wrote:

So, who wants high end name brand eqt? I've had 36 years of experience with Ruud and all I've had fail is one AC compressor. I replaced just the compressor, not the whole condenser. And I installed a hard-start kit on my current system that is still running after 26 years. Consumer Reports survey had Ruud/Rheem as lower incidents of repairs than Trane or Carrier, though they said statistically the differences were not meaningful. And you can buy Rheem/Ruud online.
Not saying that I would do that or advise doing it, just that it can be done.

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On 12/15/2010 4:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

If you can work on your own stuff, go for it. I do more repair than replace myself. A lot of HVAC companies will replace a whole condensing unit rather than the blown compressor because it's easier and they make the same profit quicker. I had an old fellow I know call me when another company came out to his house and told him his old Carrier condensing unit had to be replaced. The only thing wrong was a burned out condenser fan motor. The fan motor was a two speed which slowed down at night when the outside temperature dropped making the unit very quiet. There was also a sound insulating cover over the compressor. It was the most expensive unit produced by Carrier when he bought it years before and it was very well made. It had stainless steel hardware and there was no rust on it anywhere. It had a factory sight glass and liquid line dryer. It had an anti short cycle timer and both high and low pressure switches tied into the control circuitry to protect the compressor. I told the fellow not to let anyone tell him he needed a new unit when that one could be repaired because it was built better than most of the new units I'd seen. Simple maintenance can keep an HVAC system running trouble free for a long time, especially if it was properly installed and setup.
TDD
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Steve used improper usenet style by unnecessarily full-quoting:

Where exactly is that written? Nice to see how you try to spread FUD over this.
The manufacturer has no way to know exactly how a given furnace was purchased, and it doesn't matter in any way, shape or form how a new-in-box furnace makes it's way through the wholesale-retail chain to the customer's basement.
Once there, installation by a "professional" contractor should satisfy all the critera for the factory warranty.

The customer would not ask the contractor to assume any liability for the equipment, only for the proper installation of said equipment, which should be totally acceptible to you since you are installing perfectly good equipment, perhaps exactly the same equipment that you sell to other customers.

Your cost structure is your problem.
It must be emarassing to you when a customer finds out how much you over-charge him for the same furnace that he can buy himself from these various vendors.

I'm separating purchase of the equipment from it's installation.
There is no rational argument that you can make against a home-owner sourcing and purchasing the furnace for himself, and then contracting you or some other HVAC company to install it.
Because at the end of the day, that's all you guys really do - installation. You don't make the furnace, it just passes through your hands on the way from the factory to the customer. So don't give us any bull-crap that the customer *has to* buy it from you. That's a very unprofessional way to operate.
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    How about 'the warranty states that if installation is not done by a RECOGNISED contractor, there IS NO WARRANTY.' And no contractor who is 'recognised' ( IE set up and registered as a factory-authorized dealer or warranty contractor ) by a given brand is going to TOUCH your self-bought equipment.
    Now, sure, Pedro's Heating and Air will be glad to put it in for you. When you try a warranty claim, you will find that you have no warranty.

    When you buy something at Best Buy, and it's defective, do you expect Best Buy to stand behind it ? They didnt' make it, you know.
You idiot.
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.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Post a link to an example warranty, where it states exactly that.

So if you are a recognized seller and installer of Trane, and if I buy a new Trane furnace on my own, how can you say that you're not "authorized" to install it?

Pedro will handle the warranty work for me, because he wants the business.

Pedro will handle the warranty work for me, because he wants the business.
Besides, I thought these new furnaces were sooooo much more reliable than my POS 36 year-old furnace - right?
After all, according to you blow-hardts, these new furnaces with their electronics sensors and ECM motors are bullet-proof - right?

Looks like I touched a nerve with all you HVAC installer crooks.
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.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Here's what I'll do.
I'll call your company and ask for a quote for a furnace. You'll send out one of your sales guys (who might also be a tech / installer) and he'll measure and scope out my house and I'll end up getting a quote for 2 or 3 difference furnaces. I'll ask him if he's an installer. If he says no, I'll ask him for a name or two of one of your installers.
I'll then buy one of those furnaces from an internet retailer, have it delivered, and I'll bring it downstairs to my basement. I'll pay probably about $1250 +/- 250 for the furnace, probably close to half of what's on your quote (assuming you even break out the price of the hardware on your quotes).
I'll then call one of your installers and I'll offer him $750 cash under the table to install the furnace the next weekend (or when-ever it's conveinent for him). I'll get his HVAC license number for the warranty card that came with the furnace, and I'll even fill in your company on the warrany card if there's a line for that, and I'll send in the warranty to the manufacturer for future coverage.
I'll tell your guy that if there's a problem with the furnace in the future, I'll call him and pay him under the table to perform any servicing and warranty repair work, and he'll say that he'll be happy to do it.
I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.
How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.
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Home Guy wrote:

Oh wait, I forgot.
If I don't buy the furnace from you, you might not get that incentive reward from Goodman or Trane or York. You know, the free trip to Hawaii?
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On Dec 15, 8:32pm, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

I think HomeGuy wanted an example of an HVAC company denying warranty coverage because eqpt was bought from a non-authorized source? I think this should settle that requestt:
http://www.rheem.com/Products/Heating_and_Cooling/consumer_protection /
"Question: Does Rheem approve any online resellers of HVAC equipment? Answer: Rheem does not endorse, approve, or certify any online sale of its products through auction websites, online retailers or any other method of online sales direct to consumers without an in-person site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC professional).
Q: What happens if I purchase Rheem equipment from an online sales company? Answer: Rheem published warranties are not applicable for any equipment manufactured by Rheem that has been sold direct to the consumer via the internet or auction websites without an in-person site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC professional"
If that's not enough, here's what Trane's warranty says: http://www.trane.com/Residential/Downloads/Warranty/XR15%20Heat%20Pump%20and%20AC.pdf
"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed direct (ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled basis."
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Perhaps Rheem can explain why they sell their products to internet-based retailers in the first place.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Dunno... I took an A/C compressor I bought off the net to my local Chevrolet dealership. The service department was happy to install it, vacuum the system, and recharge everthing. Doing so converted a $700 job to a $250 one.
That was four years ago. The A/C still works swell.

You hang with the wrong crowd. My son has a Guatamalan neighbor. The neighbor works for an A/C contractor and moonlights on the side. The neighbor, in turn, knows a fellow countryman who makes a market in used equipment.
So, after Hurricane Yikes destroyed my condensing unit, I told my son, who visited with his neighbor, and two nights later I had a two-year old, two-and-a-half ton, condensing unit installed, charged, and working admirably for seven hundred bucks.
As to "guarantees," my son's neighbor knows I know where he lives and he also knows I carry a gun.
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wrote:

    Yeh, and someone else two blocks over was missing theirs :-)

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Steve wrote:

=======================http://www.acoverstock.com/goodman-warranty
AcOverstock Equipment Warranty Guidelines
(Including Goodman, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi)
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased from AcOverstock.com will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.
8. Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
* Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties. ======================== Also:
==================http://ezinearticles.com/?Goodman-Gas-Furnace-Prices-and-Goodman-Warranty-Policies-When-Buying-a-Gas-Furnace-on-the-Internet&id451441
Goodman Gas Furnace Prices and Goodman Warranty Policies When Buying a Gas Furnace on the Internet
By Jimmy Avallone
Many people who purchase new heating and air conditioning equipment through the internet are concerned whether their equipment is still warranted by manufacturer. There is much misinformation out there and this article is being written to explain how manufacturer guidelines for warranties are applied when purchasing this equipment through an internet store. Especially when it is specific to internet sales of Goodman air conditioning equipment. Goodman is the most common internet brand for HVAC equipment sold over the internet at this time and their company has gone out of their way to make it known that they will not warranty equipment to homeowners who purchase equipment over the internet if they decide to install it themselves.
Goodman has informed contractors that if they have an internet presence then they must state warranty guidelines clearly. Especially when it comes to Goodman Gas Furnaces due to the liabilities and danger in installing a gas furnace when not installed by a licensed HVAC professional.
If you are a licensed mechanical and HVAC contractor and EPA certified to buy and sell and install HVAC equipment, then you will be responsible for handling warranty claims and the manufacturer is responsible for providing for that warranty provided the guidelines below are met by both the consumer and the dealer/seller. The manufacturers warranty, like the sale of a car or other product sold by a licensed dealer, is passed through the company or dealer to the consumer regardless of through which means they make their purchase. Consumers who purchase heating and air conditioning through the internet should also receive an additional labor warranty from the licensed professional who performs the installation. Labor warranties on the installation of heating and air conditioning typically are good for 1 year. Consumers can also pay an additional charge to extend the labor warranty beyond 1 year. This is provided by your qualified local licensed installer. These warranty policies are stated as follows:
Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment Warranty Guidelines - Including brands by Goodman, Rheem, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi, or Pridiom heating and air conditioning equipment
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased through the World Wide Web will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.
8.Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
*Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties.
http://www.acoverstock.com/goodman-warranty
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Jimmy_Avallone      ================================= Here is a copy of Goodman's warrany sheet for about a dozen of their GMV, GCH, GDH, GMS and GDE furnaces:
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/Warranties/PWCFURNUD.pdf
The Heat exchange is covered by it's own warranty, and all remaining parts by another warranty. There does not seem to be any factory or manufacturer warranty coverage specifically for the labor costs to replace bad parts. Most likey, you (the customer) are "buying" this labor coverage as part of the exhorbitant mark-up when you purchase the furnace from your local HVAC crook/installer/dealer.
Regarding these two warranties, the warranty contract says this:
---------------------------- The HEAT EXCHANGER is warranted for the owners LIFETIME or for so long as the owner owns the home in which the unit was originally installed (whichever ends first), and all remaining parts are warranted for a period of 10 YEARS, except as provided below.
Neither warranty applies to, and no warranty is offered by Goodman on, any unit ordered over the Internet, by telephone or other electronic means unless the dealer selling the unit over the Internet, by telephone or other electronic means is also the installing contractor for the unit. ----------------------------
I would imagine that such a clause limiting warranty coverage on the basis of such electronic commerce is in violation of Federal "restraint of trade" laws or other such trade legislation or inter-state commerce laws.
In any case, it seems that in most cases it is the customer's responsibility to fill out the supplied warranty information package and send it directly to the manufacturer, usually within 60 days of installation.
I intend to call Goodman's Consumer Affairs tommorrow (1-877-254-4729) and ask them for exact clarification as to whether or not they are aware of internet sales of their HVAC products, if they have an explanation as to how those products end up in the internet retail market, and how they know for sure that a part returned to them or replaced by them belongs to a furnace that *wasn't* purchased via internet retailer.
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Home Guy wrote:

So I called Goodman and I asked how the warranty works when I buy a furnace from an on-line retailer, and they said they don't honor the warrany in those cases - I think it's because they don't want to deal directly with the public - they'd rather deal with dealers when it comes to parts replacement.
Anyone buying a furnace off the net is more likely to try to contact the manufacturer directly vs a local HVAC dealer when fixing their furnace, and probably the first mistake they'll make is to tell the manufacturer where they bought it. That lets the manufacturer weazel out of their warranty obligation by mentioning the (likely illegal) clause about the warranty being voided because of "electronic" sale vs dealer sale.
They acknowledged that unless I tell them I bought it from an internet retailer that they have no way of knowing, and that if I have warranty repairs done by a local contractor that most likely the contractor will have no problems dealing with Goodman as far as the parts go so it won't be a big deal anyways. Even if I installed the furnace myself and a part went bad and I took the part into a local HVAC dealer, I could probably still have the part covered by the warranty and get a replacement from the dealer (assuming the part is still covered under the warranty period).
I asked why they sell their furnaces to electronic / internet retailers in the first place, and they said they have no control over how those furnaces are re-sold, and it might even be "illegal" to refuse to do business with those retailers (restraint-of-trade laws).
Bottom line is that I don't see how it can be legal for a manufacturer to void a warranty on a product based on who sold you the product or how you purchased the product. That would be discrimination against the retailer who lawfully purchased the product from the manufacturer for retail re-sale to an end-customer in a manner that is essentially identical to a local dealer who purchases the produce from a manufacturer for re-sale to an end-customer.
I think a careful re-reading of what I posted previously will show that Goodman and other companies DO infact provide warranty coverage for systems purchased over the internet, and they provide that coverage through the licensed person or company that performed the installation of said system.
Here is part of what I posted previously:
==========================================If you are a licensed mechanical and HVAC contractor and EPA certified to buy and sell and install HVAC equipment, then you will be responsible for handling warranty claims and the manufacturer is responsible for providing for that warranty provided the guidelines below are met by both the consumer and the dealer/seller.
The manufacturers warranty, like the sale of a car or other product sold by a licensed dealer, is passed through the company or dealer to the consumer regardless of through which means they make their purchase. Consumers who purchase heating and air conditioning through the internet should also receive an additional labor warranty from the licensed professional who performs the installation. Labor warranties on the installation of heating and air conditioning typically are good for 1 year. Consumers can also pay an additional charge to extend the labor warranty beyond 1 year. This is provided by your qualified local licensed installer. These warranty policies are stated as follows: ======================================== Those policies follow below. I just want to interject here and re-state what is mentioned above.
First, HVAC manufacturers do not (as a rule) provide any coverage for the labor component for parts replacement. The consumer is paying for that labor coverage as part of the inflated cost he's paying to the HVAC dealer/installer.
Second, if you have a licensed contractor / installer perform the installation of the unit that you buy from an internet retailer, then you have satisfied the terms of the manufacturer's warranty.
It would probably be useful in these cases to ask your local HVAC installer to quote you for installation of a furnace that you've purchased and delivered to your basement through your own means, and to break out the cost for the labor warranty separately from the installation cost. You may find it cost-effective to forego the installer's labor warranty.
Also, I would stipulate that in any such installation contract, that the contractor agrees to not decline requests to service the unit in the future (with the labor to be paid by the customer if the customer has declined labor coverage) and that the contractor agrees to handle the replacement of broken parts still covered under the manufacturer's warranty - even if the customer removes and replaces those parts himself.
With that said, here are the policy terms continuing from the above quote:
====================================Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment Warranty Guidelines - Including brands by Goodman, Rheem, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi, or Pridiom heating and air conditioning equipment
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased through the World Wide Web will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.
8.Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
*Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties. ============================== References:
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/Warranties/PWCFURNUD.pdf
http://www.acoverstock.com/goodman-warranty
http://ezinearticles.com/?Goodman-Gas-Furnace-Prices-and-Goodman-Warranty-Policies-When-Buying-a-Gas-Furnace-on-the-Internet&id451441
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