Sometimes that is true.
HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less - but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible warranty.
Then it's not really apples-to-apples.
Dunno... I took an A/C compressor I bought off the net to my local Chevrolet dealership. The service department was happy to install it, vacuum the system, and recharge everthing. Doing so converted a $700 job to a $250 one.
That was four years ago. The A/C still works swell.
You hang with the wrong crowd. My son has a Guatamalan neighbor. The neighbor works for an A/C contractor and moonlights on the side. The neighbor, in turn, knows a fellow countryman who makes a market in used equipment.
So, after Hurricane Yikes destroyed my condensing unit, I told my son, who visited with his neighbor, and two nights later I had a two-year old, two-and-a-half ton, condensing unit installed, charged, and working admirably for seven hundred bucks.
As to "guarantees," my son's neighbor knows I know where he lives and he also knows I carry a gun.
Yeh, and someone else two blocks over was missing theirs :-)
So, who wants high end name brand eqt? I've had 36 years of experience with Ruud and all I've had fail is one AC compressor. I replaced just the compressor, not the whole condenser. And I installed a hard-start kit on my current system that is still running after 26 years. Consumer Reports survey had Ruud/Rheem as lower incidents of repairs than Trane or Carrier, though they said statistically the differences were not meaningful. And you can buy Rheem/Ruud online.
Not saying that I would do that or advise doing it, just that it can be done.
Same situation with buyng a furnace on the internet.
Identical product, significant price reduction, bur lotsa gotchas.
What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy. I've looked into buying some items over the net but the shipping eats up any savings in purchase price.
TDD
If you can work on your own stuff, go for it. I do more repair than replace myself. A lot of HVAC companies will replace a whole condensing unit rather than the blown compressor because it's easier and they make the same profit quicker. I had an old fellow I know call me when another company came out to his house and told him his old Carrier condensing unit had to be replaced. The only thing wrong was a burned out condenser fan motor. The fan motor was a two speed which slowed down at night when the outside temperature dropped making the unit very quiet. There was also a sound insulating cover over the compressor. It was the most expensive unit produced by Carrier when he bought it years before and it was very well made. It had stainless steel hardware and there was no rust on it anywhere. It had a factory sight glass and liquid line dryer. It had an anti short cycle timer and both high and low pressure switches tied into the control circuitry to protect the compressor. I told the fellow not to let anyone tell him he needed a new unit when that one could be repaired because it was built better than most of the new units I'd seen. Simple maintenance can keep an HVAC system running trouble free for a long time, especially if it was properly installed and setup.
TDD
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(Including Goodman, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi)
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased from AcOverstock.com will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
Also:
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By Jimmy Avallone
Many people who purchase new heating and air conditioning equipment through the internet are concerned whether their equipment is still warranted by manufacturer. There is much misinformation out there and this article is being written to explain how manufacturer guidelines for warranties are applied when purchasing this equipment through an internet store. Especially when it is specific to internet sales of Goodman air conditioning equipment. Goodman is the most common internet brand for HVAC equipment sold over the internet at this time and their company has gone out of their way to make it known that they will not warranty equipment to homeowners who purchase equipment over the internet if they decide to install it themselves.
Goodman has informed contractors that if they have an internet presence then they must state warranty guidelines clearly. Especially when it comes to Goodman Gas Furnaces due to the liabilities and danger in installing a gas furnace when not installed by a licensed HVAC professional.
If you are a licensed mechanical and HVAC contractor and EPA certified to buy and sell and install HVAC equipment, then you will be responsible for handling warranty claims and the manufacturer is responsible for providing for that warranty provided the guidelines below are met by both the consumer and the dealer/seller. The manufacturers warranty, like the sale of a car or other product sold by a licensed dealer, is passed through the company or dealer to the consumer regardless of through which means they make their purchase. Consumers who purchase heating and air conditioning through the internet should also receive an additional labor warranty from the licensed professional who performs the installation. Labor warranties on the installation of heating and air conditioning typically are good for 1 year. Consumers can also pay an additional charge to extend the labor warranty beyond 1 year. This is provided by your qualified local licensed installer. These warranty policies are stated as follows:
Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment Warranty Guidelines - Including brands by Goodman, Rheem, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi, or Pridiom heating and air conditioning equipment
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased through the World Wide Web will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
8.Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
*Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties.Here is a copy of Goodman's warrany sheet for about a dozen of their GMV, GCH, GDH, GMS and GDE furnaces:
Regarding these two warranties, the warranty contract says this:
---------------------------- The HEAT EXCHANGER is warranted for the owner?s LIFETIME or for so long as the owner owns the home in which the unit was originally installed (whichever ends first), and all remaining parts are warranted for a period of 10 YEARS, except as provided below.
Neither warranty applies to, and no warranty is offered by Goodman on, any unit ordered over the Internet, by telephone or other electronic means unless the dealer selling the unit over the Internet, by telephone or other electronic means is also the installing contractor for the unit.
----------------------------
I would imagine that such a clause limiting warranty coverage on the basis of such electronic commerce is in violation of Federal "restraint of trade" laws or other such trade legislation or inter-state commerce laws.
In any case, it seems that in most cases it is the customer's responsibility to fill out the supplied warranty information package and send it directly to the manufacturer, usually within 60 days of installation.
I intend to call Goodman's Consumer Affairs tommorrow (1-877-254-4729) and ask them for exact clarification as to whether or not they are aware of internet sales of their HVAC products, if they have an explanation as to how those products end up in the internet retail market, and how they know for sure that a part returned to them or replaced by them belongs to a furnace that *wasn't* purchased via internet retailer.
Here's what I'll do.
I'll call your company and ask for a quote for a furnace. You'll send out one of your sales guys (who might also be a tech / installer) and he'll measure and scope out my house and I'll end up getting a quote for
2 or 3 difference furnaces. I'll ask him if he's an installer. If he says no, I'll ask him for a name or two of one of your installers.I'll then buy one of those furnaces from an internet retailer, have it delivered, and I'll bring it downstairs to my basement. I'll pay probably about $1250 +/- 250 for the furnace, probably close to half of what's on your quote (assuming you even break out the price of the hardware on your quotes).
I'll then call one of your installers and I'll offer him $750 cash under the table to install the furnace the next weekend (or when-ever it's conveinent for him). I'll get his HVAC license number for the warranty card that came with the furnace, and I'll even fill in your company on the warrany card if there's a line for that, and I'll send in the warranty to the manufacturer for future coverage.
I'll tell your guy that if there's a problem with the furnace in the future, I'll call him and pay him under the table to perform any servicing and warranty repair work, and he'll say that he'll be happy to do it.
I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.
How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.
But still cheaper than what home-owners see from local HVAC crooks.
Last time I looked, we were in a recession, and nobody's turning away business.
Did the quotes break-out the price for the hardware separately?
I would have thought you could buy all that for closer to $3500 easily.
UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.
If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces can be shipped cheap as well.
Oh wait, I forgot.
If I don't buy the furnace from you, you might not get that incentive reward from Goodman or Trane or York. You know, the free trip to Hawaii?
Not every HVAC company or HVAC tech is a crook. The crooks are well known to the repair guys and are hated. The dishonest service people give everyone a bad name and the good honest service techs get very upset when hearing about what one of the crooks pulled off. I spent a couple of hours at a deposition involving a lawsuit against one of the crooks who vandalized the AC belonging to the elderly mother of a friend of mine. Those crooks shorted out her compressor and told her she needed $5,500.00 worth of new system. I wasn't about to let that happen. The crooks called her out of the phone book with a $69.95 spring tuneup special which is something a lot of less than altruistic service companies do to get their foot in the door to take advantage of the less than knowledgeable customers, especially the elderly. You can usually spot the crooks by their shiny new trucks.
TDD
I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)
TDD
I got a good price on my >600 pound Unisaw a couple of years ago, with cheap shipping too (Amazon Free Super Saver). ...and no sales tax. ;-)
OK - I've got some numbers.
I dug out the handy Amprobe and checked the current draw on my Tempstar ntv6050fb furnace.
On low speed circulate it is drawing .21 amps at 116 volts AC. When it calls for heat and the Eductor fan is on high, and the hot plate ignitor is on, it draws just over 2.2 amps. When the gas lights and the ignitor shuts down, it draws 2.0 amps, and with the furnace running normally, the unit draws all of 1.5 amps. Thats about 175 VA.
Yesterday the furnace ran 6 hours and 17 minutes, and so far today 4 hour and 12 minutes. Yesterday was a pretty cold and windy day. If it runs 6.25 hours a day at 175.3 va, that is just a hair ovr 1kWh per day, and the low speed blower, running the other 17.75 hours at 34 va, consumes another .6 kWh.
IF the furnace cycles 20 times (I have not counted, but I figured I'd guess on the high side) the eductor and ignitor, running aprox 1.5 minute for each cycle, draw another .7 amps,for another 0.3 ah or .035 kWh per day - for a total of something just over 1.6 kWh per day.(48kWh per month) At 7.5 cents per kWh for the first 1000 per month, and 8.5 cents per kWh from there up, over and above the roughly $16 per month "distribution fee" from Waterloo North Hydro, if I didn't use electricity for anything else to spread the distribution fee over, it would cost me about $20 a month to run the furnace. Since I DO use electricity for other things, the incremental cost to run the furnace is only something like $4 per month for the electricity.
A half HP PSC motor, running only with the furnace calling for heat,at
475 va, would consume 93 kWh of power, costing $6.98 a month, just for the blower. If the blower on low speed circulate keeps the temperature more even and the furnace does not need to run as much because of that, the cost for the single speed PSC motor would be higher - possibly approaching $10 per month.On the other hand, if, as some have theorized, circulating the air looses heat to the outside and/or basement, NOT running the low speed circulating fan would cause the furnace to run less - saving not only the .6kWh, but also some furnace run time.
Anyone with a PSC blower motor on a conventional standing pilot light furnace have an Amprobe and want to check the blower current draw for a sanity check?
I'm just guessing 475 Va running current.
The low speed blower is set at 600 cfm with a .1" static (default) and the heat blower speed is also at default, 0.20" static, with the AC set to 900 cfm at 0.50" static, default for a 2 ton AC according to the installers notes. The default for heat was set by the specified heat rise across the heat exchanger
In my business the hard to get stuff (and stuff I could save a bundle on) is generally small and light making the shipping pretty reasonable unless it comes UPS from the USA - where the brokerage kills ya.
I think HomeGuy wanted an example of an HVAC company denying warranty coverage because eqpt was bought from a non-authorized source? I think this should settle that requestt:
Q: What happens if I purchase Rheem equipment from an online sales company? Answer: Rheem published warranties are not applicable for any equipment manufactured by Rheem that has been sold direct to the consumer via the internet or auction websites without an in-person site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC professional"
If that's not enough, here's what Trane's warranty says:
"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed direct (ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled basis."
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