Surfactant for Use With Roundup on English Ify

I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?
My online research suggests that these products are suitable for enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:
Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS) Chaser (surfactant + 28% N) Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N) Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)
Any experience with them on English ivy?
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
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Not an answer to your question, but I've been using Brush-B-Gon instead of Roundup.
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John,
I thought that Roundup already had a surfactant included, but then I'm no expert (as my wife & in-laws frequently remind me). I spoke with a very knowledgeable Scotts/Ortho employee in Marysville, Ohio early this summer and after the conversation I felt that adding a surfactant really wasn't necessary.
From our experiences using Roundup on various types of ivy, the big issue is how long the Roundup gets to stay on the foliage before any watering or rain occurs. The package states that the product will kill after just 1 hour of contact, but I'm certain that maximum efficacy is attain after several days without rain. It is extremely important to get the maximum amount of the product down into the root zone.
Personally, I prefer to spend my money on higher concentrations of Roundup or on additional applications.
My son has killed ivy for 3 customers in the past 2 weeks. Typical Ortho recommendations for Roundup concentrations vary from 0.5% to 2%. We use 4% and we reapply 3 days later for English ivy, poison ivy and other woody plants. The lower concentrations and single applications work great for grasses and such, but the woody plants need the extra dosage in my opinion.
Good luck, Gideon
======== John McGaw wrote in message ... I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works?
My online research suggests that these products are suitable for enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants:
Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS) Chaser (surfactant + 28% N) Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N) Patrol (surfactant + 28% N)
Any experience with them on English ivy?
-- John McGaw [Knoxville, TN, USA] http://johnmcgaw.com
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John McGaw wrote:

I use the same kind of liquid soap that my wife uses to wash dishes. I add a large squirt to each mix of spray.
Note that, if you do this with Roundup, you must give the sprayer at least one extra rinse with plain water before putting it away or using it with any other spray.
--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/
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David Ross wrote:

I had thought of that myself and tried it weekend before last. I added a couple of healthy squirts of dish liquid to an extra-concentrated mixture of Roundup and sprayed a patch of ivy around and up some trees. After a week the result was nil so far as I can tell (unless the leaves are a bit cleaner now). I really hate to think about having to grub all of the ivy out by hand since it covers ~1/4 acre.
--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
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John McGaw wrote:

With young annual weeds, the effects of Roundup should be visible in less than a week. But with established perennials (e.g., ivy), the result might not be visible for 2-4 weeks. Roundup works by translocating from the foliage to the roots and then killing the roots. With a larger root system, the established pernennials just take longer.
--

David E. Ross
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The systemic herbicide triclopyr (e.g., Garlon) is absorbed into plant tissues and carried to the roots, effectively killing the entire plant in place. Foliar applications: From summer to fall, apply a 2.5% mixture of triclopyr amine (Garlon 3A) in water to the leaves or cut first, allow to regrow, and apply the same mix to new foliage. Herbicide will also be absorbed through the stem bark for additional effect. Basal bark applications: A higher rate (15-30%) of triclopyr ester (Garlon 4) may also be applied to stems of vines growing up trees but there is a possibility that the herbicide will be absorbed into the host tree, depending on the thickness of the host tree's bark and the penetration of English ivy rootlets. Because English ivy is an evergreen vine, and remains active during the winter, herbicide applications can be made to it any time of year as long as temperatures are above 55 or 60 degrees Fahrenheit for a few days. Fall and winter applications will avoid or minimize impacts to many native plant species. Repeat herbicidal treatments are likely to be needed and followup monitoring should be conducted to evaluate the success of treatments. Herbicidal contact with desirable plants should always be avoided. In areas where spring wildflowers or other native plants are interspersed, application of herbicides should be conducted prior to their emergence, or delayed until they have died back
Herbicide application The waxy cuticle of H. helix allows the plant to have a high resistance to herbicide uptake, thereby, creating great complication during attempts to treat the plant (Morisawa, 1999; Derr, 1993). Studies prove that H. helix is tolerant of preemergence herbicides (Derr, 1993). Multiple applications of postemergence herbicides have proven to be more effective though success varies according to the age or maturity level of the plant (Derr, 1993). Herbicides absorption is greater in newer shoots compared to older, more mature leaves (Derr, 1993). Round-up (glyphosate) applications of 3.0 kg/ha (2.7lb/Acre) on younger plants proved most effective when applied during spring months (Derr, 1993; Reichard, 2000). Application of Round-up (glyphosate) on mature plants retarded growth up to 60% though proved ineffective to completely destroy H. helix even with a higher concentration, a second application, or use of a non-ionic surfactant (Reichard, 2000; Derr, 1993)). Weedar 64 (2,4-d) applied at a rate of 1.1kg/ha (1lb/A) did control H. helix when applied twice (Derr, 1993). In some of the treatment plots, however, ivy was reestablished after two years from advances of adjacent populations that were untreated (Reichard, 2000).
George Krall of the Bureau of Environmental Services in Portland, Oregon (2000) also mentioned the combination technique of using Scythe (pelargonic acid) with Round-up (glyphosate). Scythe is a non-selective herbicide that effectively burns through the leaf cuticle, killing active leaf tissue; it is appropriately named after the Grim Reapers tool (Thomson, 1997; Gilman, 2000). It is assumed that once the pelargonic acid has been applied, Round-up (glyphosate) will be able to penetrate through the leaf cuticle more successfully and then be absorbed by the plant through transpiration (Krall, 2000). This method is being used in riparian zones, wetlands, and upland forests throughout Portland.
There is speculation that the method of combining pelargonic acid and glyphosate may not be very effective. Round-up (glyphosate), a systemic herbicide, needs active tissues to enable transportation to the roots of a plant for it to be effective (Gilman, 2000). Applying Scythe (pelargonic acid) will destroy leaf tissue resulting in a reduced effect of the Round-up (glyphosate). Gilman (2000) suggested researching an alternative method of using Round-up (glyphosate) with a controlled droplet application or electrostatic sprayer. This treatment system would charge the ions of Round-up (glyphosate) so that herbicides will more successfully adhere to stomates on the underside of the plant, avoiding its waxy cuticle and resulting in increased uptake (Gilman,2000). Studies have examined this method and determined that it allows for a more accurate application of herbicides and increased effectiveness (Gebhardt, 1984).
Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel. -- Aldo Leopold
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My husband uses some diesel fuel in his round up when he has particularly nasty things to kill. Like poison ivy,blackberry bushes and brambles If you aren't afraid to try it, le me know, I'll find out how much. It's not allot but it WORKS.
Kate
:I remember that someone mentioned mixing a surfactant with Roundup was : mandatory if it was to have any chance of working on English ivy. I've : been looking for a product that fits the bill but everything I've found : seems to come only in huge agricultural-sized containers. Have any of : you found something in more home garden-friendly size that works? : : My online research suggests that these products are suitable for : enhancing the killing capacity of Roundup on difficult plants: : : Cayuse Plus (surfactant + AMS) : Chaser (surfactant + 28% N) : Dispatch (surfactant + 28% N) : Patrol (surfactant + 28% N) : : Any experience with them on English ivy? : : -- : John McGaw : [Knoxville, TN, USA] : http://johnmcgaw.com
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On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:00:56 GMT, "SVTKate"

What an idiot! No point in round up....sheesh. What's your address so I can call your local EPA!
Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel. -- Aldo Leopold
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wrote: : : >My husband uses some diesel fuel in his round up when he has particularly : >nasty things to kill. : : : What an idiot! No point in round up....sheesh. What's your address so : I can call your local EPA! :
kiss my ass We are talking like a tablespoon to two gallons.
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:09:37 GMT, "SVTKate"

That would entirely depend on the quality.... It remains a idiotic practice regardless of you skewed view...
Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel. -- Aldo Leopold
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SVTKate wrote:

The diesel will kill the foliage almost immediately. This prevents the Roundup from moving through the plant (in the sap) to the roots. Since Roundup works by killing the roots, you are wasting it.
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David E. Ross
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: SVTKate wrote: : > : > My husband uses some diesel fuel in his round up when he has particularly : > nasty things to kill. : > Like poison ivy,blackberry bushes and brambles : > If you aren't afraid to try it, le me know, I'll find out how much. : > It's not allot but it WORKS. : : The diesel will kill the foliage almost immediately. This prevents : the Roundup from moving through the plant (in the sap) to the : roots. Since Roundup works by killing the roots, you are wasting : it.
Thank you David. I didn't know this and I will pass the information along to my husband along with the idea of dish soap instead of diesel. He's an old schooler, and sometimes they did things differently "back in the day".
Kate
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do not add any chemicals to compounds please. Glyphosate already has a surfactant in it. Geesh.
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Bourne Identity wrote:

Funny you should say that. Wonder why so many state-ag-type organizations specifically say that to kill some tough plants one really must add a "non-ionic surfactant" to Roundup? I don't doubt that Roundup has _some_ surfactant in it but I know that spraying it on English ivy is pretty much a losing proposition because the waxy cuticle on the leaves causes the majority of the spray to bead up and roll off before it can do any good. My only problem, and the origin of the post, was trying to identify an appropriate surfactant that can be purchased in home rather than farm-sized containers.
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John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
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wrote:

Your only problem, like the original poster is that you didn't read the label. If you had you'd learn Roundup is NOT labeled for Hedera sp.
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wrote:

Try using liquid dish soap, about 1 oz per gallon. Should work plenty good.
Thunder
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I had/have the same problem with English Ivy, Creeping Euonymus along with some poison ivy. I called the people at Round up because my first of several applications did nothing. They had me combine Brush be gone, Round up (the really concentrated stuff) and some dish soap. Took a while and a couple of extra spot treatments but it worked.
Marc

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