down not the problem. I have had many tons of chicken feces spread about here in the past along with with wood chip it sort of invites a vitality. I would not like it in my water supply . So what is the problem? Perhaps long times of produce sitting about and driven a few thousand miles. The labels in my supermarket suggest when to sell by but not when they arrived. Then misted to suggest fresh.
Bill
any degree of closeness at the chart on that site, you would never garden if you were worried about either pathogens or luck. That site says that Water is a better place for survival of E. coli than manure. No-one I know can garden without water, and as David H-S says, the world is a dirty place. If ya number's up, it's up as far as I'm concerned and till it's up, I garden and I haul fresh manure.
wouldn't recommend it even though the Chinese have done it for 40 centuries.
That incidence, and another involving lettuce in California, involved on very particularly nasty form of E. coli (viz 0157:H7). There are many varieties of E. coli. The FDA would have to take the most cautious approach they could without putting the fear of raging disease into the whole populace.
There are many other forms of diseases we can pick up in a garden (or in cafes or even from handles on shop doors). I've had cellulitis from the most minute rose prick you've ever seen. My husband had cellulitis when travelling in a tropical country without even getting any break in the skin. It's all about taking sensible precautions without being fear ridden or we'd never garden, own animals, go out of the house etc.
Shirley (couldn't resist) you wouldn't drink water that was fresh run-off from a cow pasture. We be talking shit here, I don't care what animal it came out of. Don't try to obscure the issue with your wiley Australian pas-de-deux.
Right, friday night in Australia and what better amusement than a kickin', gouging, bitin', knock-down, drag-out fight, eh? Fine, if you want to load up your garden with fresh manure in the middle or the end of the growing season, I wish you God's speed. For anyone who doesn't need to tempt the Almighty for thrills, I suggest that they keep their shit in a corner of their property, away from those tasty little plants, for at least three months and preferably four. By that time UV and micro critters should have rendered it healthy to use. I never did consider caution a form of paranoia. But then, I'm older than you;-)
seems to me to make some assumptions about the diet of the animals. It says steer manure (I suppose they mean beef cattle rather than having some reason to think that cow, heifer or bull manure is different from that of steers) has more seeds than dairy cow. This would only be so if they had different diets. I am thinking this table is based on USA practice which includes much lot feeding. Here you will get dairy cattle on one paddock and beef on the next with them both eating the same pasture. Under those conditions I cannot think why the manure would be very much different. [As for those diary cows you would think that a steady diet of paper would alter their output and it is in fact so.]
It also seems to assume that "manure" includes bedding (ie straw etc that has not been through the beast) This makes a huge difference to composition compared to the straight stuff.
I thought the bit that said "Washed dairy manure from healthy cows is just about perfect for garden use" was interesting. Who washes it? What do they do with the dirty water? Where do they find the water and the time? The mind boggles.
David
"Most factory-type diaries do not use bedding; instead, they flush the manure with water into holding ponds and let it separate. Manure from these types of farms comes from the bottom of the ponds when they are drained." [hence, "washed"]
My conclusion is that the FDA simply does not really know the actual source of E-coli in recent grocery produce problems. And, they will probably never will now, or, in such future outbreaks.
Commonly, the workers in the grocery produce department place the newly arrived stuff in the rear of the bin, the best they can.
One boggle at a time. I looked at several tables and they all reflected the same data, that steers produce more nitrogen compounds than dairy cows. Why is left to conjecture, but diets seems a reasonable guess.
Some where in all these feces there may be best procedure.
I don¹t know how to use the following table. Note the issue of time frame.
I think we are discussing available nitrogen.
Bill a guy that trucked it in covered it with leaves and tilled in time.
mushroom compost is brilliant stuff, not only does it help the garden and existing plants, you usually find your breakfast eash day as well!!!!!!!! in my experience you cannot get better as it is well rotted and prior to being used for mushrooms all the harmful ' ' has been removed
kathryn
What the.......?
Fine, if you
So how old do you think I am? And what has that to do with the use of animal poop?
However, if you are going to give such advice then I will provide an alternative thought. If people choose to keep their shit covered in a corner than perhaps they might also be interested in thinking about and finding out how "well rotted animal manure" is arrived at and what happens to the nutrients to reach that stage. I prefer to have the nutrients in my garden and not in some corner somewhere.
Shirley, who the hell is Shirley?
(couldn't resist) you wouldn't drink water that was fresh
Yep, we ARE talking shit here, but shit from cattle, not human shit.
I had assumed that as someone who continually tries to educate people to follow the organic path, you would understand that plants like cattle shit and in fact all animal shit. Human shit has no place in any domestic garden and no-one suggested drinking cattle shit.
Don't try to obscure the issue with your wiley
Well if by "Australian pas de deux" you mean that David and I are trying to get you to discuss this topic using logic and/or experience, then I guess I'd have to plead guilty. It sure beats doing the Texas two step.
We were talking cow shit so why suddenly introduce the topic of human shit?
I've had worse summer jobs...
Bob
Fran, you don't mind me calling you Fran, do you? Good. You don't keep up with cutting edge of American culture?
Oh goodie, your back ;o) and brought your muscle with you:o( I was beginning to think that you had one too many Fosters and had gone to the waller for a nice lie down, now I find you've been prattling on about taxonomy (let's keep it to Chordata Tetrapoda), while I was talking about "enteric bacteria - rod-shaped Gram-negative bacteria; most occur normally or pathogenically in intestines of humans and other animals." The operative word here is "pathogenically".
I'm sure that plants do like doo, unless it's too much doo and fries them.
My point is, my painfully obtuse friend, is that the ingestion of green doo (be it sipped or chewed) may lead to predictable and avoidable consequences (you get sick). You should avoid root crops in conjunction with green doo. Leafy vegetables could be contaminated by rain splashing doo onto the plant, so either mulch them to eliminate splashing or don't grow them. Fruiting crops are probably safe; train any vining ones such as cucumbers or tomatoes onto a support so that the fruit is off the ground. Thoroughly wash any produce from the garden before eating it. Or you could just use aged manure and save yourself the trouble of the doo dos and the doo don'ts. Or you could doo it Bush's way and just irradiate it, doo and all, (yumm, yumm) and that would be the end of the problem (they say).
Ah, you haven't lived until you've tried "Country Swing".
To put a finer point on it, I was stressing (1) the FACT that feces is a source for pathogenic organisms (see definition above) and (2) this concern abates after three to four months of dry warmth and sunshine. See:
No I don't mind at all.
I hope you had your tongue firmly in your cheek when you called that "cutting edge" because if you didn't, then I'd hate to see what you include in your "dumb crap" category.
But you think your reference to "Shirley" does have resonance? That is both jingoistic and arrogant on your part given the universal access to newsgroups.
Do you ever attempt to stay on topic or attempt to post from a basis of either logic or relevance? Your obsession with alcohol and your irrelevant and illogical imaginings about other's drinking habits has nothing to do with the topic or the thread. My nationality also has nothing to do with the discussion, however your attempts to use that as a form of insult is duly noted.
This group is called rec.gardens. The question originally asked was: "There is a bark place down the road that sells mushroom compost and steer compost. Is this stuff good for the garden? Can I use it like compost and heap it on the ground around plants and trees?"
If you had bothered to read the question with any degree of comprehension you would have noticed 2 things: the use of the words "compost" and "around plants and trees".
The one and only answer to this question is the one I originally gave. That answer is "yes".
You chose to answer that manure should be six months old before use. I know from long experience, as clearly does David, that such ageing is not necessary and in my case I know that even applies for fresh poultry manure. It depends on where it is spread.
But back to the current twist in his thread. Of course animal manure has pathogens in it. But so does soil. So does water and potting mix. I even provided a post that cited that water retains pathogens longer than manure. If you bothered to spend even a nonosecond thinking about the implications of water borne pathogens then you would be advocating that we don't use water in the garden.
You aren't advocating that, and you would sound like a total idiot if you did. However, that does not mean that you aren't being a patronising idiot in dribbling on continuously about pathogens. If you bothered to pay attention to what other's have written, you would realise that we already know about pathogens in our gardening environment. Note the use of the word "gardening". That does not include the lack of sewers in 19th century Britain.
The discussion here started, and should have remained, about manure used in gardens. If you bothered to stay on topic and not ramble in a free association way, you might be able to figure that out. Now you are forced to try to justify your irrelevant introduction of the British cholera outbreaks of the 19th cenury and choose to do that by trying to be insulting.
Stay on topic. Stick to the pathogens found in manures used in gardens. That does not include human, dog, cat, pig or many other manures.
Lord spare me! That is complete rubbish! Just how many plants have you ever managed to fry with fresh poo? I've yet to use any manure that has ever fried any plant and that includes fresh poultry manure. In your keeness to sound knowledgable on this topic, you fail (as usual) to believe that anyone has a even a modicum of common sense.
A very raw beginner might fry something if they planted straight into fresh manure, but no-one with even a soupcon of gardening experience would manage to do that.
And you, my obtuse non friend, should learn to read for comprehension. I know you like to pontificate but your repeated posts indicate that you aren't following the discussion with any degree of attention. If you weren't always so keen to grandstand and show off, you might actually make some sense more often.
You should avoid root crops in conjunction
This ramble is further indication that you are responding to something in your own head rather than what has so far been covered in this thread. Do try to pay more attention to what is written, not what you think has been written.
paying attention? Why refer me to a cite that I provided in the first place? I was the one who posted that cite on the 18th of July. I read it and digested it before you did and I posted it in response to a cite you gave about the most nasty but rare form of E. coli. Most forms of E. coli are harmless but that one is not.
And no doubt you think that your continued grandstanding and opinion on everything even if not backed up by knowledge or experience is helpful. At least you have some amusement value I suppose.
And I hope that no one gets sick or worse because of your advice.
For crying out loud! Do pay more attention.
I have already given advice in this very thread that whilst the OP can use the steer crap, it shouldn't be used on lettuce or parsley. I just reiterated above that we all know that manures have pathogens. If people can't read this thread and can't figure out by now that manure contains pathogens (as does soil, water and potting mix) and are so ignorant that they can't figure out for themselves that they can just as easily become ill stacking the stuff as you advise as they can from spreading it as I recommend then they must be as sharp as frog spawn and would probably cut off their own foot with a spade and consequently bleed to death if let loose without supervision.
At some point this dialog went from a discussion to a humorless harangue. G'day.
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