Neem as pesticide - how effective against Japanese beetle?

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Hi everyone,
Heard it on the radio today that neem is a great organic pesticide that can be used against Japanese beetle. I have never heard of neem before and had to run a small search on the Net. First thing that caught my attention in the Wikipedia article about neem is that it is only effective against the pests that actually digest it via the sprayed plant tissue and it suggests that some bugs (ladybugs for ex), among other insects are pretty much immune. My greatest interest is in whether or not Japanese beetle would be affected - we've been hit really hard by them in the past. So, does anyone in this respectable group have a real life experience using neem as a pesticide? Could you please post your observations, especially if they include the japanese beetle?
Where do people buy neem and in what form for garden use, anyways?
Thanks!
D~
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dirs_at_1-script_dot snipped-for-privacy@foo.com (DA) wrote:

Not useful for Japanese beetles. Here's my article on neem, including the facts on the phony claim to kill Japanese beetles: http://www.paghat.com/neemworship.html
Essentially, if you drenched an area with neem on a very regular basis that made the garden even more unpleasant for humans than for beetles, you'd kill a small percentage of larvae, none of the breeding adults, and you MIGHT slightly lower the overall fertility rate. You'd lose more beneficial insects than harmful, including those that would've kept many other potential problems in check, so that other garden illnesses will arise.
Plus you'd get the same effect using any horiticultural oil, there's nothing special about neem to kill any insect other than by drowning them, unless an actual pesticide has been added to the oil, which is what some commercial formulations do (adding pyrethrin or azadirachtin, which kill lots of beneficial insects, a few harmful ones, not much effect on Japanese beetles per se).
The only serious organic treatment is bacillus. It has to be used very narrowly as instructed and it takes three years to work, but once agarden is thoroughly innoculated, there'll never be japanese beetles there again, never another need to fight them. So it's worth going the slow but certain route.
-paghat the ratgirl
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On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 23:28:11 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@paghat.com (paghat) wrote:

There are other organic products that specifically target JB, Milky Spore being the most effective. Apply as directly to the soil and the MS bacterria attack JB, and only JB, larva. Eliminate the larva and you eliminate JB adults raised on your property.
There will still be adult JBs fly in from your neighbor's yard but generally they move into travel mode when looking for mates, not a meal so little damage ensues from them.
Milky Spore does take a year or two to completely inoculate your soil but is very effective. I have applied to about 2 acres of yard and mini-farm and have very little JB problems.
John

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ct.net.au:

not John, but Milky Spore is Bacillus popillae. Bacillus thuringiesis is one of a large family where different types work better on certain insects. Bt kills caterpillers (unfortunately it's not selective which caterpillers). Bti (Bt israeliensis) kills mosquito larvae.
lee
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enigma wrote:

Thank you for your responses, guys. I am sure glad I have asked the question here. The guy on the radio sounded very convincing it would have worked and I would have wasted time and money.
Anyways, I am getting a sense that getting rid of japanese beetle and instant gratification are not to be used in one sentence. Still, I guess, I am not really grasping the concept of trying to kill grubs of a beetle that can fly. What exactly would prevent them to fly over from some nearby property? I think this is exactly what happened here: until we planted roses, there were no JBs to speak of. Then they simply gathered for the treat and decided to stay...
Anyways, are the claims of getting rid of JB for good based on the assumption that spores stay in the ground once introduced and will kill the next spring's grubs, too?
Thanks for your comment, guys, keep them coming. I think I am on the right track to at least keeping JB infestation in check if not getting rid of them completely.
D~
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ct.net.au:

how'd we get to fuhgus gnats from Japanese beetles?

well, i'll keep this in mind for when i get a greenhouse. we currently use Bti in mosquito dunks in the stock tanks. supposedly they kill blackfly larvae as well as mosquito larvae, but i don't know that i quite believe that claim. blackflies breed in running water, not standing water, so how would one make sure they're exposed to the Bti? at any rate, i'm hoping this doesn't confuse the OP because Milky Spore (which is not Bti), once you get it into the soil, kills the Japanese beetle larvae for 10+ years before you need to reapply. if i was the OP & thought i'd just learned that Milky Spore only lasts a few weeks, then saw that a 50 pound drum costs $1300... i'd give up right there! but if you consider that that 50 pound drum covers over 5 acres & protects for over 10 *years*, it's actually very reasonable. BTW, it also kills the larvae of Oriental beetles, which are even *nastier* than Japanese beetles. they eat the leaves off your plants during the day & at night they burrow under the plants & eat the roots. lee
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In article

Jeff Herton's book will help: http://www.readerviews.com/InterviewHerten.html
-paghat the ratgirl
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Just because it is has "The Ashford" in the title, don't make the mistake of thinking that the info it contains is applicable only to the Ashford wheels or drop spindles. It's a good book as is the one on weaving.

What does it do? All I got was the "welcome to Zombo com" verbal message and then 2 tiny options which, when I tried to select either of them, just resulted in a rerun of the verbal message.
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ct.net.au:

Ashfords are expensive, but like all good tools, you get what you pay for. that said, my wheel is a Robin, built by some guy in Maine.
if you can't find the Ashford book, try looking for the Alden Amos Big Book of Handspinning, Interweave Press 2001. mine cost $40 new (at Borders) http://www.interweave.com/spin/books/alden_amos.asp

i let it try to load for 10 minutes & got really tired of the "welcome to zombo.com. you have reached zombo.com. zombo.com. welcome to zombo.com...." so what does it *do*? lee
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Lee
Ever get the book on Dye Plants?
Bill
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news.net:

yes, i just got it. thank you! i really like how it's "bound". that's handy when you want it to stay open. some of the listed plants aren't native here, but quite a few are or aren't that uncommon as garden plants, so i should get some use out of it. it should be interesting to see if i get the same colors on the common weed types, because soil & water pH affect the dye colors from plant materials yesterday the kid & i dyed some yarn with cake frosting dyes... oh my, bright colors. yellow, spring green, sky blue & violet... makes the walnut hull dyed yarn look a bit drab ;) lee
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Seems like the info went to the right place.
Good !
Bill
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I looked into the price of an Ashford spinning wheel

The Ashford wheel I own is a "Joy" bought for me as a gift after my last cancer treatment finished. Well named as it is a total joy to use and carry off to meetings.

I had a look at their web site - nice looking wheels. Which one do you have Lee?

:-)) I borrowed that book from the Guild and for some reason Alden and I just didn't click.

Snap.
I suspect we've seen (heard?) all it has to offer.
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wrote in message

um, none of those. :) i have one of his original wheels in cherry faced plywood & the wheel is solid, not spoked. i'd love one of those special edition maple wheels though...

maybe i'll try it later in IE Tab. maybe it doesn't work in Firefox? i really hate broken HTML that needs IE to "work".
lee
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Yes indeedy. I started drooling over one I saw there. :-))
But I don't NEED any more wheels.
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In article

What do you folks do with all these wheels ? Make stuff I assume but who cares these days about hand woven. It is not in the malls.
Bill who would like hand made little feet warmers when and if we have a new generation appear. Yellow and blue.
Wall hangings as an art form popped in.
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wrote:

ah, i was confused because Fran mentioned buttons, & i didn't see any. the voice is actually quite nice, but the repetition gets annoying.
lee <nothing is perfectly fine>
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Lee, remember that I am not all that computer literate. If I mentioned 'buttons' it means tha bits you can move the cursor over and it looks like you can click on them and go somewhere. That dumb site mentioned 'shirts' (or somesuch).
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Hmmmm. You gave rat girl a serve about wasting YOUR time, so you decided to waste someone else's?????????????????????
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Yes, I thought that was the impression you had gained which is why I posted again to indicate that it is universally applicable.
Ashford produce various weight spindles and wheels with Scotch tension, Irish tension, double drive and electric spninners so that covers all the bases a beginner would come across. The info in the book is applicable across the board to all wheels and spindles (although I should say that I don't know about wind wheels as I have no experience of them - but they have neither the price tag or the availability to attract a beginning spinner anyway).
As just one example, the book explains how to figure out drive ratios and although it uses an Ashford wheel to illustrate (even though there is really no need as anyone who buys an Ashford will either have the manufacturer's info on what the drive ratios are or could go to the Ashford site to find out there) you would use exactly that method to find out the ratios of an antique or any modern wheel.
I have 2 wheels and only one of them is an Ashford, but it is still the best book I have found for having all the info I need in an easily accessible format and it was the one I chose to buy after borrowing a lot of spinning books from the Spinners and Weavers Guild.
The book, paperback, used, averaged $30 - $40 and the local

That's too much for a beginning spinner to spend. You don't know yet whether you'll want to continue or not.
Does your library do inter-library loans at all? I've found that is a great way of getting access to all sorts of books which are otherwise unattainable and as a beginner I would advise reading lots of books as sometimes instructions make no sense in one book but another way of saying the same thing in another book can suddenly cause one of those 'Eureka' moments.
I looked into the price of an Ashford

Possibly as a result of the sub prime washup and they can't keep up with the exchange rate until they get a firm order????? I'm not sure what the US dollar is doing against the NZ dollar, but I notice that the exchange rate for Oz and the US dollar is moving very much in or favour.
Is there a Spinning and Weaving Guild near you at all? They often hire out wheels to beginners for extended periods so they can learn before they need to buy.
If you stick with it, the "Spin Off" magazine produced by Interweave press will become important to you for all sorts of reasons. Check it out at newsagencies and if you don't see anything to attract your interest or cause a flutter of excitement, don't even bother trying to learn to spin.

No, or not from anything I've seen so far. The jingle is merely irritating and the site seems to offer nothing but the jingle.
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