If you bike about here you will see sometimes one large tree in an area of about five acres. This is now multiple homes but not too long ago it was farm land. The one tree was left to provide shade for the horses that pulled the plows.
Bill
Loreena Mckennitt and some unknown 18th century songwriter pretty much say it all.
O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand And the more I think on you the more I think long If I had you now as I had once before All the lords in Old England would not purchase Portmore.
All the birds in the forest they bitterly weep Saying, "Where shall we shelter, where shall we sleep?" For the Oak and the Ash, they are all cutten down And the walls of bonny Portmore are all down to the ground."
O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand And the more I think on you the more I think long If I had you now as I had once before All the Lords of Old England would not purchase Portmore."
ca 1745.
I am sure. But you should be considering replacement trees and planting saplings. The older trees are mature and will start to die all too soon. What about your windbreak then?
Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of potatos in Europe...which, remember, were introduced by Sir Walter Raleigh after he returned from the New World...so you're telling me that in the roughly 150 years between the arrival of the potato in western Europe, including Ireland, from South America, and the Potato Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it had also become deforested?
Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns incurred by the Penal Laws?
You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much about the natural and human history of Ireland.
Nik
I've planted about thirty trees so far and about 27 have survived the storms. I also planted about 10 young spruce trees harvested from the forest - and three larches were sown naturally - but a herd of sheep got in and nibbled most of those to death.
It is quite difficult to buy good young tree saplings of a kind that are native to Ireland. As I like our plot to blend into the mountain, I don't plant any fancy trees.
As well as trees I've planted about forty or fifty whin bushes - and they look a treat this year.
Jochen
T'was the towel heads(pasted from an old SCI thread):
"Message from Q'il Q'as (Al Jazzbeera)
Q'adda yen Hamid fastha q'on Aymid? Tha Tehran A'Q'ilta er Al'Awer. Ni Al Traw'q ter Q'il Q'as nawat' Ayla'q, Shni Q'lingfer A'Qling Ibn' Braw "
Si
"Bog snorkler extraordinaire"
Same crusader attitude that got us into the present pair of vanity wars, stupid git. Muslims had street lights, indoor plumbing, and running water when your sort was still walking in your own filth.
Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little to do with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of trees were the main causes of the deforestation. Manufacturing, farming, and the monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes. (Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British, (English) is merely being paranoid and specious. Britain had more than enough forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!
As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for charcoal and cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was available of course
- but only after the forests had made room for it.
If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is surprising that any trees survived at all.
"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".
I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.
As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the Baltic countries - that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in various history books.
Jochen
On the other hand, older houses in the countryside are usually surrounded by mature trees planted when they were built to provide shelter. Newer houses are often exposed, in part I suspect because modern materials makes added shelter less necessary. New roofs don't fly off as easily at thatch used to. That said, the choice of tree matters too. Fuschia is a fairly common choice as a border, as are several native hedge plants. Basically I'm in favour of pretty much any tree except leylandii and rhodedenron.
As to the cities, trees cost money, and most developments are thrown up with as few extras as the builders can get away with.
I think you've got it the wrong way around. Often its not so much that they want the house to stand out in the landscape, as they want a view of the landscape from the house.
"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow. About
8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the birch, which became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed by a wave of oak and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly, ash, beech, hornbeam and maple."Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?
No, it was always available...
Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish forests to build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.
and, interestingly,
"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund his expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in English outposts."
Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut down the trees of Ireland.
What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?
For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?
Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees in nearby Ireland?
Which ones precisely?
Nik
Billy
"I'll take it neat"
For some reason I was placed at the head of the large boardroom table with the Minister at the other. Someone next to me poured a large measure into my glass so I quaffed it down, put my elbows on the table in the manner of - right, now, let's get down to business. I know it now, but did not then, that the culture was; that if the glass was empty, it had to be refilled; but I quaffed that down as well. After some time I realised that people had stopped talking in English and instead used various other languages, which I didn't understand. I started talking Gaelic, but all that could come out of my roundabout brain was an old Irish poem 'What are we going to do when all the wood is gone?...'
To my amazement, the Minister translated the poem into English - there were English bankers at the meeting, and he gave the same explanation for the removal of trees as your good self. When I looked at my glass again, it was full to the brim. I can't explain it but it happened.
I have been experimenting with trees for fuel for about fifteen years and, for the record; Eucl. Viminalis wins by a mile.
Donal
Yes, Administrative Cost........
Donal
There are more countries around the Baltic than just Latvia.
For the British fleet - when it was still built out of wood - certainly until about 1860. I wouldn't get to hung up about the Spanish Armada - the british fleet was quite small in those days, as were the ships.
I have no idea. I'm sure the procurement agents in those days were quite competent and got their supplies from whoever could deliver the quality and quantity need. The demands of a large fleet are quite astonishing - even for simple things like wooden tackles.
Jochen
A combination of Spanish Broom and Tree Lupin make an excellent local windbreak (scented).
Donal
In Ireland a whole culture had grown up around living amongst the trees and it was this culture that was effectively destroyed by the deforestation of Ireland wrought by the forces loyal to the English crown...in their desire to obtain materials to build a fleet large enough to beat/repel a fleet whose creation had likewise deforested Spain...which of course is a much larger country than Britain...Spain's total land area = 504,030 km² whereas Britain's is
244,820 km²...and Ireland's (the entire island of Ireland) is 84414 km²That is true.
There is a reason why Cromwell's men gave the inhabitants of Ulster the choice "To hell or Connaught" that being that the land of Ulster was preferable to the land of Connaught for farming...and underlies the essentially economic reasons rather than theological ones for the Irish conflict.
the potato in
I've addressed this elsewhere in this post.
Right...after the 1588 Battle with the Spanish Armada...
Did I claim it was?
Nah.
So you're telling me that the population of Ireland in 1750 was 4 million people despite the fact that there were no censuses of the entire population of Ireland until 1821?
I think that you're going to have to revise what you've said above.
No, Ireland's population is more like 6 million...remember to compare apples with apples and include the population of what is now known as 'Northern Ireland' in your figures because the figures for the census of 1821 included all 32 counties...
Really you should have because the consequences of the laws pertaining to inheritance and the selling of land have had long lasting ramifications, consider:
"English Statute 1 Ann c. 26 (1702): An Act for the Relief of the Protestant Purchasers of the forfeited Estates in Ireland Sec. 15. No papist, during the time of his professing the popish religion, shall be capable to inherit, take or enjoy any other forfeited estates or interest therein,"
and, in particular, this one:
7.04 2 Ann c.6 (1703): An Act to prevent the further Growth of Popery Sec. 10. All lands owned by a papist, and not sold during his lifetime for valuable consideration, really and bona fide paid, shall descend in gavelkind, that is to all of his sons, share and share alike, and not to the eldest son only, and lacking sons, to all his daughters, and lacking issue, to all kin of the papist's father in equal degree,The consequence of this was that the lots that were actually owned by Irish people who chose to remain 'Papists' was that their farms became smaller and smaller because the farms owned by Irish Catholics *had* to be split up evenly among *all* their children as opposed to the eldest inheriting the farm with the younger ones either being married off, sent into the Clergy or the Military as was traditional prior to the imposition of the Penal Laws... until potatoes were the only crop that could sustain the family that lived upon the land...maybe I do have a chip on my shoulder, maybe I don't but the point remains.
Admittedly difficult but given that the naval battle between the English and the Spanish occurred in 1588 was before the potato was introduced to Ireland, as you claim above, 1600 and the trees had already been largely cut down to build the ships that fought the Spanish Armada in the name of the Elizabeth I the point is beside the point...the trees were already gone...
Have you yourself ever actually been to the Burren?
Perhaps I should say, don't seem to know much, in particular about the impact of the penal laws and their long reaching historical consequences...some of which are still in place right now...in the form of inherited privilege...
The lecturers at my University disagree with you.
Please indicate, using formal logic where it is that I make an invalid inference.
Of course a logically valid inference can be drawn from an incorrect assumption/belief but it remains for you to demonstrate that I have done this. I await with interest.
Ok, fair enough but does that have anything at all directly to do with the deforestation of Ireland? Or the introduction and subsequent dependence of the Irish Catholic population on the potato?
Why then did you not refer to the impact of the Penal laws regards inheritance?
Claiming to know the extent of my knowledge is just silly...especially considering that you've underestimated it. The infestations of the fungus Phytophthora infestans occurred several times in the 1840's with the consequences being particularly dire in 1848-49 given that there had already been several years of crop failure...
Do feel free to make up shit to suit your prejudices eh?
It was the Spanish Conquistadors in the 1530's in Peru that were the first Europeans to encounter potatoes.
Hawkes, J. G. 1992. History of the Potato. In: P.M. Harris, Ed. The Potato Crop: The Scientific Basis for Improvement. Second Edition. Chapman and Hall. London. pp. 1-12.
Some claim that potatoes washed up in Ireland in 1588 as a consequence of the Spanish Armada sinking off the west coast of Ireland...its possible but not a certainty that the introduction was that early...but...as I say above it is beside the point because the trees that were cut down in Ireland were already cut down at that point.
Nik
NOT the British, who always had plenty of forests of their own, but also imported any woods for ship building mostly from Scandinavia.
Peat bogs? of course. But they were also forested.
In article <
Thanks for the tip.
Mind you, our house is 200m high on a mountain and open to the South, East and West - in fact we can see across Lough Foyle from the Donegal mountains and the mouth of the Roe to the Sperrins. Some of the winds we get - particularly from the West - are /very/ severe.
I tend to plant only those trees that I know will grow up here because I've seen them elsewhere. Even the oak tree I planted three years ago seems to be dying. Ash, larch and spruce on the other hand seem to be doing very well.
Jochen
So, you would have enjoyed being beaten by the Spanish Armada and being subjected to an Inquisition no doubt! - Such blether and rubbish you talk Nik! See this:
By Raleigh, from a wooden ship! Made in England out of British Oak.
You usually do.
Bullshit. Your opinion only. See
Nonsense! : See
So? If the estates were his, then he had every right to do as he pleased. In any case, how many ships? Possibly two at most? Not a lot of Oak involved in that.Why do you isist on being such a begrudger against the English? After all, without England, Ireland would not have progressed past the Iron age. Technology, smelting iron, using wood for that? The largest industry in Wicklow for many a long year was Forestry. Nothing to do with the English.
Your source?
Bullshit. Over simplification and merely your own unsupported opinion. See:
Maybe you should use Google Nik, everyone else seems to!
ROTFL
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