Winter squash or pumpkin?

In another thread a ref was given:
Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."
I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more. it looks like I need to sort it out.
For the record I am in Australia and these are pumpkins in our dialect:
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j444/HareScott/The%20garden/AFewPumpkins.jpg
Would these be called winter squash or pumpkin in the US?
We don't have 'winter squash' by that name. To me a squash is a cucurbit that is soft-skinned and picked immature, zucchini is a squash but they come in other shapes and sizes, like button squash (pattypan) and crookneck. The skin is green, yellow, near black or orange. The flesh is usually pale greenish and translucent and they don't keep very well outside refrigeration, they generally don't have creases. I think you would call these summer squash. So let us leave these aside for now.
To me a pumpkin is a cucurbit that is picked mature, has a hard skin and keeps well outside refrigeration, the flesh is usually yellow to orange and opaque. The skin is yellow, orange, grey, blue-grey or some combination when ripe. They generally have creases running longitudinally. Examples are Queensland blue and the above JAP (Just Another Pumpkin).
So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter squash?
Is there any correspondence between the different common names and the species of cucurbit?
What about the Banter People, what is a pumpkin in Old Blighty?
David
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Off the top of my head- I'd call them squash. In general our pumpkins are rounder. Usually orange- but that barrier has been shattered with white, red, and permanently green ones.
We even have an 'Australian Blue Pumpkin' - that I'd call a squash if I didn't have the seed packet handy. [it's a Queensland Blue]
OTOH- Atlantic Giant 'pumpkins'- all the record breaking ones we see- are developed from a Hubbard Squash. It's a weird dance we do with words.

I think you've got that just right.

In general, pumpkins are a subset. [IMO] The exception I noted above is a Hubbard Squash that somehow gets named a pumpkin.
I thought I'd get some help here; http://www.hort.purdue.edu/rhodcv/hort410/squash/sq00001.htm
But not so much-- "The name squash is often interchanged with that of pumpkin. Most varieties that are called pumpkin bear orange fruit, have very long vines, and have stems that are firmer, more rigid, and squarer than those of other squashes. The most common pumpkins are varieties of Cucurbita pepo. The large-fruited pumpkins, weighing up to 400 lb, belong to the species Cucurbita maxima. "
So some are Cucurbita Pepo, which makes them more closely related to summer squash. And some are maxima- though they might be referring to the Atlantic Giants here, though a 400 pound one would be a real dissapointment to most growers.
We probably eat most of the pie pumpkins we plant- small, sweet things. But I'd bet that as many pumpkins are grown with the intention of being Halloween decorations. Or- in the case of the record breakers- as a curiosity. [and if you get a 600pounder or so, you can sell the seeds for a few bucks each.]

Jim
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wrote:

But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?

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wrote:

I have no idea please elucidate.
D
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`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe.
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I don't understand 90% of that- but I think Billy nailed it.
I'm surprised that I can't find a site with all [or even a few] the subspecies of cucurbita listed with their proper names.
The 2 Steve listed are a Cucurbita maxima, and Cucurbita mixta, but C.m. -- ?what?- Linnaeus went through all that trouble to categorize stuff, and now we're too busy trying to call something what people will buy and not enough keeping them in their proper place so all of us folks who speak different languages [USAian, Australian, English, etc] can understand each other.
BTW- The 'Blue Australian Pumpkin' is listed as a Morcheta- so that's 3 categories of Cucurbita represented so far. [the cushaw is known as a pumpkin in some places-- so mixta is spoken for too, sort of]
Jim
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http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?12606
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

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Thanks. I didn't see much there-- I think they are saying "cucurbita pepo L." and the 'L' stand for Linnaeus?
But somehow, from there I ended up here- where I did a search for pumpkin & voila! http://www.tropicos.org/NameSearch.aspx?commonname=pumpkin
They've got 9 listed. All Cucurbitaceae, and all but one is a Cucurbita. The outlier is Benincasa hispida , which among its other common names "White Pumpkin" [I think I've heard of it as Ash gourd & Winter Melon.]
The others listed are [Cucurbita] foetidissima, lundelliana, maxima, moscheta, and pepo. The pepo is the only one that gives a variety name. [and it happens to be melopepo, which is zuchini, which they say has the common name of bush pumpkin. Can't say I've ever heard that.]
Well-- I'm learning a lot of interesting stuff, here, but I don't think I'm any closer to understanding why we call the things we do, "Pumpkins".
Jim
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On 5/27/2011 10:02 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Can't answer your general question but I've grown pumpkins and butternut squash. I once made a pumpkin pie from butternut squash that was indistinguishable in taste from a pumpkin pie. Apparently the spices overwhelm the taste of either type squash.
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Go to www.rareseeds.com and have a look at their squash/pumpkin section. They have the largest selection of specimens for sale that I've ever seen. The cucurbit group crossbreeds very easily. There are hundreds of different "pumpkins" because the "squashes were one of the earliest vegetables domesticated. In the book "Lost Crops of the Inca" evidence of "crooknecks" was noted as far back as 3000BC.
I apologize, David, I was being a bit facetious. We truly are peoples divided by a common language.
Steve
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Steve Peek said:

Candy roasters are Cucurbita maxima (same species as Hubbard squash and giant "pumpkins") while cushaws are C. mixta.
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Pat in Plymouth MI

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Squash that is to be used fresh is summer squash. Squash with hard skins that can be saved are winter squash. See:<http://www.reimerseeds.com/squash_663.aspx
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wrote:

So far so good. What is the difference between a winter squash and a pumpkin?
D
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Traditionally, pumpkins are round and orange, like these. <http://henryfields.com/pumpkin-seed/c/108/
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Or red, or white, or green, or blue, or grey like these- http://www.pumpkinnook.com/facts/colors.htm
I think they *are* what the seed monger says they are.
Jim
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wrote:

LOL. We're all gardeners here so we all should know that colour and shape has very little to do with what we call this variety.
David, I'd suggest that you get hold of the 2 seed saving books; the US "Seed to Seed" and the Australian one "The Seedsavers handbook" and read what they have to say.
Not that either of those books are particularly illuminating - in fact they just confirm what I've decided and that is to call it whatever you choose.
The US one says "'all pumpkins are squash. Pumpkins are not even a 'subspecies' (group)". This book says - Hubbards are C. maxima, the Cushaws are C. mixta (although I notice that one called the Golden Cushaw is supposed to be a C. moschata), butternuts are C. moschata, crooknecks are C. pepo (as are zucchini).
The Australian one says 'pumpkin and squash are interchangeable terms, depending on what country you live in.'
After you've read these books, you'll realise that calling the plants one thing or another is just a matter of national habit.
You may find this site interesting (or not): http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/squash.html
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wrote:

:-))) I've been sitting back chuckling. I knew when you asked the question what a can of worms you were opening after seeing the responses to the same question in the thread I mentioned earlier which I saw in another ng.
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wrote:

Agreed, I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread and we didn't even get to the other genus (genii?) in the curcubit family. Steve
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David Hare-Scott said:

20garden/AFewPumpkins.jpg
Those would be called winter squash in the US, and look to be a variety of Cucurbita moschata, which species is more commonly grown in differently shaped (long necked) cultivars known as butternut squash.
Two things first:
"Summer" and "winter" squash are varities differentiated by when they are picked to be used. Summer squash are picked and used when immature and winter squash are picked as mature fruit.
All "pumpkins" are winter squash, but not all winter squash would be called pumpkins in USA vernacular. Usually what we call a pumpkin is a winter squash of the species C. pepo thats rounded and orange with a large seed cavity. But that name is also extended other winter squashes of the same shape and color.
C. pepo pumpkins:
http://marketcook.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/pumpkins.jpg
Let's get specific. There are four species of squash that I am familiar with and I have grown cultivars of all of them at one time or another.
I. Cucurbita pepo or pepper squashes.
All of the cultivars grown as summer squash (with very few exceptions) are in the species C. pepo. Crookneck, zucchini, pattypan, what have you, they are selected to be eaten while very immature.
This species also includes a number of winter squashes. Orange jack-o'- lantern and pie pumpkins, acorn squash, delicata and sweet dumpling.
There are also a few colorful, hard-shelled ornamental gourds that are in this species.
The fruit stems of C. pepo squashes (when mature) are extremely hard and angular and flare outward at the fruit. The blossom scars are usually small and smooth.
C. pepo squashes are very susceptible to squash vine borer.
II. Cucurbita maxima
This species, as the specific epithet suggests, provides the biggest of the winter squashes. Giant pumpkins, hubbard, banana, buttercup and the Australian Jarrahdale are all C. maxima squashes.
The stems on C. maxima squashes are rounded and somewhat corky looking and the blossom end might have a small protruding button.
C. maxima squashes are extremely susceptible to squash vine borer.
Certain varieties of C. maxima squash (most particularly those of the buttercup sort) are known for their high dry matter content and superb eating quality.
III. Cucurbita moschata
This species is mostly known for the long necked butternut type, but there are tan- or buckskin-colored rounded varieties that are refered to as pumpkins or "cheese" types and a few dark green (or "black") varieties.
The mature stems are extremely hard and angular and flare out at the fruit. The blossom scars are smooth. When mature, these may be green with tan spots or streaks, but most typically C. moshata squashes ripen to a tan or light brown color.
C. moschata is resistant to squash vine borers.
C. moschata squashes are very often grown for processing into canned pumpkin in the northern US.
IIII. Cucurbit mixta
C. mixta is a also known as the cushaw or neck pumpkin. They generally have a long, curved neck with a round bulge at the blossom end.
The stem on a mature cushaw is very hard and angular and flare at the base. The blossom scar is small and smooth.
C. mixta is resistant to squash vine borers.
Cushaws are very popular as processing varieties in the southern US. They have a long growing season and a great tolerance for hot weather.
I have managed to grow cushaws in my garden, and they are extremely beautiful squashes. The variety I grew was white with streaks and splotches of gold, orange, and green.
Now, my favorite winter squash is a hybrid named "Tetsukabuto" which is a interspecies cross between C. moschata and C. maxima. It has the resistance to squash vine borers of C. moshata parent and the high dry matter content and sweetness of the finest C. maxima squashes.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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On Sat, 28 May 2011 09:01:22 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

AFewPumpkins.jpg
In the US those are squash. We use the word pumpkin for a very specific member of the squash family. It's large, orange and mostly used as jack-o- lanterns on Halloween, I would bet that only a small percentage of pumpkins are actually eaten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpkin
Pumpkins are also used as projectiles for air cannons and Trebuchets,
http://www.punkinchunkin.com/results/records.htm
http://www.yankeesiege.com /
Pumpkins can be huge, the largest ever is over 1800 lbs,
http://www.pumpkinnook.com/giants/giantpumpkins.htm
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