anise or fennel?

[Matthew Montchalin]

My neighbor recently dug up a huge bush from his yard- it is about 5 feet tall - and gave it to me in a bucket (wastepaper basket). He tells me that it is 'anise' (and it has a faint licorice-like flavor to it) but according to my gardening book, fennel grows 5 feet high, and anise grows only 1 foot high. How can I tell which plant I've got?

I am perhaps confused or misled by the passages in my gardening book that say that

anise cilanthro fennel licorice

are all members of the parsley family. Will they cross-breed if I raise them next to each other? Anise is an annual, but fennel is a perennial. If they are crossed, is there any way of knowing in advance whether the result is a perennial?

[Henriette Kress]

Feathery leaf, much like chervil

VILE smell, and coriander seed when it's done

Dilly leaf, possibly bulbous stem at ground level

Not in the same family at all.

No. And that's pretty much the definition of genus (as opposed to species).

Aniseed gets _huge_. 5' is about right. Anise hyssop (Agastache foeniculum) is another anisy plant (in the Lamiaceae, though - pretty blue or white flower spikes), as is sweet cicely (Myrrhis odorata)(in the Apiaceae, like anise, parsley, cilantro and fennel)(very soft fernlike leaf, longish seed that tastes of anise sweets when it's green, but of nothing at all when it's ripe and black).

Licorice is NOT in the Apiaceae. It's in the Fabaceae; and its leaf does not taste or smell of anise - the root tastes of sweet sweet licorice, instead.

Henriette

[M. Tiefert]

Not everyone perceives the smell as vile. ("There are two kinds of people...") If you like real Mexican food (as opposed to the fast-food chain that pretends to be Mexican), you'll recognize the smell.

cheers,

Marj

• * * Marj Tiefert: Mediterranean Garden Shop: Sunset zone 14-mild

[Art Sackett]

You can say that again. I make my salsa cruda by the gallon (about one a week, more if there's company) and it's just not the same without a couple hands full of cilanto in it.

[Bill Ranseen]

Florence fennel (a variety grown for its swollen leaf base) is often sold in markets as anise and fennel is often referred to popularly as anise.

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Henriette Kress wrote: |Licorice is NOT in the Apiaceae. It's in the Fabaceae; and its leaf does |not taste or smell of anise - the root tastes of sweet sweet licorice, |instead.

Ah! Thanks for the correction! :)

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Henriette Kress wrote: |> I am perhaps confused or misled by the passages in my gardening |> book that say that |>

|> anise | |Feathery leaf, much like chervil | |> cilanthro | |VILE smell, and coriander seed when it's done | |> fennel | |Dilly leaf, possibly bulbous stem at ground level | |> licorice | |Not in the same family at all.

ok

|> are all members of the parsley family. Will they cross-breed |> if I raise them next to each other? | |No. And that's pretty much the definition of genus (as opposed to |species). | |> Anise is an annual, but |> fennel is a perennial. If they are crossed, is there any way |> of knowing in advance whether the result is a perennial? | |Aniseed gets _huge_. 5' is about right. |Anise hyssop (Agastache foeniculum) is another anisy plant (in the |Lamiaceae, though - pretty blue or white flower spikes), as is sweet cicely |(Myrrhis odorata)(in the Apiaceae, like anise, parsley, cilantro and |fennel)(very soft fernlike leaf, longish seed that tastes of anise sweets |when it's green, but of nothing at all when it's ripe and black).

Does the oil of anise or fennel confer an advantage in some way? Do predators or insects shy away from anise of fennel, because of the way it tastes?

|Licorice is NOT in the Apiaceae. It's in the Fabaceae; and its leaf does |not taste or smell of anise - the root tastes of sweet sweet licorice, |instead.

Is the oil in the licorice root have the same chemical makeup as the oil in anise or fennel?

[Henriette Kress]

Nope. But most licorice candy is made with anise oil instead of licorice...

Henriette

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Henriette Kress wrote: |> I am perhaps confused or misled by the passages in my gardening |> book that say that |>

|> anise | |Feathery leaf, much like chervil | |> cilanthro | |VILE smell, and coriander seed when it's done | |> fennel | |Dilly leaf, possibly bulbous stem at ground level | |> licorice | |Not in the same family at all.

Finally, I have heard some people tell me that "Italian" parsley does not taste like 'regular' parsley, but has a different taste altogether. Is it similar to cilanthro (which to me has a tangy, metallic sort of flavor) or something else altogether?

[Cereoid-UR12-]

No, no. You have it backwards.

"Roman Cilantro" is parsley!!!!!

[Pat Meadows]

I don't think so. I grow cilantro, flat-leaf (Italian parsley) and curly (regular) parsley.

I think the Italian parsley tastes pretty much like the 'regular' parsley, but milder, less strong - you could say 'a more delicate taste'.

I certainly don't think it (Italian parsley) tastes anything at all like cilantro. No way.

But tastes are tricky, you know, and I'm convinced that what

*I* taste may not be the same as what *you* taste. Very individual things, tastes.

Pat

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Cereoid-UR12- wrote: |No, no. You have it backwards. | |"Roman Cilantro" is parsley!!!!!

Then I doff my hat to you, I honestly don't know.

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Pat Meadows wrote: |>Finally, I have heard some people tell me that "Italian" parsley |>does not taste like 'regular' parsley, but has a different taste |>altogether. Is it similar to cilanthro (which to me has a tangy, |>metallic sort of flavor) or something else altogether? | |I don't think so. I grow cilantro, flat-leaf (Italian |parsley) and curly (regular) parsley. | |I think the Italian parsley tastes pretty much like the |'regular' parsley, but milder, less strong - you could say |'a more delicate taste'. | |I certainly don't think it (Italian parsley) tastes anything |at all like cilantro. No way. | |But tastes are tricky, you know, and I'm convinced that what |*I* taste may not be the same as what *you* taste. Very |individual things, tastes.

And while we are on the subject, if cilanthro and parsley are two different species, has anyone done any genetic engineering yet to cross the two? Bypassing Darwin and Mendel, it must be possible to create a hybrid between these two species... ?

[Pat Meadows]

Cilantro and parsley are not only different *species* they are in different genuses.

Parsley is _Petroselinum crispum_ .

Cilantro is _Coriandrum sativum_ .

So they are not very closely related. They are in the same family: the _Apiaceae_ .

I can't offhand think of any particular reason why anyone would WANT a parsley/cilantro cross.

BTW, you can't bypass Darwin and Mendel...they didn't come up with wild surmises, but worked out and elucidated some of the laws of nature: how things actually work in the real world.

I suppose you could make a GMO cross: gentically-engineered cross - gene splicing. But again: why would you WANT to?

Pat

[Cereoid-UR12-]

Just because the species are in two different genera that doesn't necessarily mean the two genera are not closely related. There is such a thing as intergeneric hybrids. Intergeneric hybrids have been reported in the Apiaceae (Umbelliferae) and in the closely allied Araliaceae.

Don't know if it would be possible to cross the two species by cross pollination and get hybrid progeny. Fertility might possibly be restored by doubling the chromosomes?

In this modern era of nuclear manipulation and gene splicing, almost anything is possible. The question is whether going to all the effort and experimentation to do so would be worth all the expense and time needed.

[Floating Away]

I have heard that certain people lack an enzyme in their mouths (or have an extra one, or something like that), the result of which is that cilantro has a disagreeable "soapy" taste. My friend said she had heard the same thing, and that something like one in five people has this problem. It makes sense on one hand, but on the other hand I, as a cilantro-hater, also find the aroma repugnant, and it doesn't make sense that aromas would be affected by the enzymes in my mouth...

floating_away

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Pat Meadows wrote: |Cilantro and parsley are not only different *species* they |are in different genuses. | |Parsley is _Petroselinum crispum_ . | |Cilantro is _Coriandrum sativum_ . | |So they are not very closely related. They are in the same |family: the _Apiaceae_ .

Aha! Thanks, you guys are great!

|I can't offhand think of any particular reason why anyone |would WANT a parsley/cilantro cross.

It would be nice if there were a parsley with a slightly different flavor.

|BTW, you can't bypass Darwin and Mendel...they didn't come |up with wild surmises, but worked out and elucidated some of |the laws of nature: how things actually work in the real |world. | |I suppose you could make a GMO cross: gentically-engineered |cross - gene splicing. But again: why would you WANT to?

There are lots of reasons why a person might want to create new plants never seen before. Curiosity sometimes is its own reason for doing things, but I suppose there are more practical reasons for doing things. For instance, a higher concentration of oils in the leaves (or even the roots or bulbs) is a good reason for creating a hybrid. Different colors of leaves or flowers is also a good reason for creating a hybrid, especially if you anticipate marketing the product to small scale home gardeners that like to mix as many of their plants into the same plot as possible.

[Matthew Montchalin]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Cereoid-UR12- wrote: |Just because the species are in two different genera that doesn't |necessarily mean the two genera are not closely related. There is |such a thing as intergeneric hybrids. Intergeneric hybrids have been |reported in the Apiaceae (Umbelliferae) and in the closely allied |Araliaceae.

Have these reports been published relatively recently? In the last five years or so?

|Don't know if it would be possible to cross the two species by cross |pollination and get hybrid progeny. Fertility might possibly be |restored by doubling the chromosomes?

There is nothing wrong with creating new plants that are healthier, hardier, and more beneficial than was the case with either of the parents before them.

|In this modern era of nuclear manipulation and gene splicing, almost |anything is possible. The question is whether going to all the effort |and experimentation to do so would be worth all the expense and time |needed.

Yes, I understand that time and expense figures into the effort of creating a viable hybrid.

[Pat Kiewicz]

In the hopes of getting a cilantro-flavored plant that will produce leaves for an entire season without bolting. (Not exactly a fortune-making enterprise, to be sure.)

[Pat Meadows]

This would be good. I hadn't though of that. I bet it could make someone's fortune....Having either one as a hardy perennial would also be good.

You know what, though: I bought Slow-Bolt cilantro seeds from Pinetree and I had quite a few cuttings from them - they lasted for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Pat