Kitchen electrics

Hi
I hope that someone can advise me. Weve just pulled out a kitchen which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light fitting to LED spots.
The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is unearthed.
Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run afresh from the board.
Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add individual RCBO trips to each section.
As you can see were getting very conflicting advice and whilst Im still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from 800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes only when you know what youre doing!!!
All help very much appreciated.
--
Johanna


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Most of the readers on this list are American. You may get more fitting comments on a UK list.
I'll see if I can find that list. Copy them in, on the chance they will know.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
Hi
I hope that someone can advise me. We've just pulled out a kitchen which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light fitting to LED spots.
The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is unearthed.
Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run afresh from the board.
Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add individual RCBO trips to each section.
As you can see we're getting very conflicting advice and whilst I'm still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from 800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes - only when you know what you're doing!!!
All help very much appreciated.
--
Johanna



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I Would go for a spark who wants to replace ALL the cabling and fittings. using existing 30 year old cables etc. I Would have them all replaced with new ones patching up now may save a few s now but you could be covering up what could end up being a potential disaster. I went to a job a few years back that had been partially rewired 10 years earlier (but because they had, had a new carpet fitted back then and didn't want the sparks ripping it up) When I lifted a hall floor board to trace the cause the of the light to flickering when it was walked upon, I found a wire that had been there since the house had had central heating installed in the 70s and the plumbers had trapped the wire this trapped and very flattened cable had actually scorched the floor board.
So again go for replacing all the wires etc. in the kitchen. Paul W
Hi
I hope that someone can advise me. We've just pulled out a kitchen which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light fitting to LED spots.
The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is unearthed.
Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run afresh from the board.
Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add individual RCBO trips to each section.
As you can see we're getting very conflicting advice and whilst I'm still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from 800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes - only when you know what you're doing!!!
All help very much appreciated.
--
Johanna



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The OP needs to ensusure that her electricain is registered here
http://www.competentperson.co.uk /
There is not enough info to say what is needed (although starting from scratch on such a job often works out cheaper in the lon run than trying to safely add extra sockets to a very old circuit.)
Stormin Mormon wrote:

--
Adam



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So there are a number of issues here... 1. You want kitchen wiring significantly changed, quickly I guess. 2. You need to rewire the circuit(s) which are rubber. 3. You need to rewire the circuit(s) which have no earth.
I also presume you don't want to do all that at once.
Here's what I would do, based on what you've said without having seen the installation...
Have a brand new Consumer Unit fitted which is sized for a house rewire. You could have this split off the existing tails using a service connection block, or you could have the tails rerouted into the new CU, and daisy-chain the old one from a fuseway in the new CU (which could give your old wiring RCD protection if it doesn't have it, until it gets replaced).
Electricians are going to be very reluctant to touch any of the old wiring, for fear that if anything goes wrong afterwards, they might be held responsible. It also might fail any testing they have to do.
Have the kitchen rewired into the new CU, to current wiring standards. Don't use any existing circuits - have them bypass the kitchen, although there's a risk that even touching the rubber cable of that age will result in all the insulation turning into dust, making it hard to do anything with it other than rip it out.
After you have the kitchen done, you can then start working on the rewiring. The new circuits are connected to the new CU, and eventually you can have the old CU removed.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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On 09/05/2012 15:13, Stormin Mormon wrote:

>> Most of the readers on this list are American. You may get more fitting >> comments on a UK list. >> >> I'll see if I can find that list. Copy them in, on the chance they will >> know. >> >> Christopher A. Young
Ah, almost a good call... good enough I guess.
f.u.d.home isn't very lively, but uk.d-i-y is... and I'm pretty sure some of the people there are going to be able to answer this.
Andy
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On 09/05/2012 20:47, Andy Champ wrote:

The rubber will be well past it (it seems unlikely it was new at the last rewire if that were only 30 years ago)
The lighting circuit will certainly need redoing (either the whole circuit for that floor if its shared with the kitchen, or a new circuit run for just the kitchen). Since there is no compliant way of extending of changing it now - especially if you want metal fittings or switch gear.
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lighting_Circuits_Without_an_Earth

If the cable was installed 30 years ago and is a modern style PVC cable, there there is a resonable chance its in a usable condition. However the cost of cable is cheap compared to the effort of wiring. So if its going to be simpler to replace it then go with that.
It would also need to be adequate for your proposed use. Typically a modern cooker circuit is wired with 6mm^2 T&E cable, from a 32A MCB. That is usually adequate for domestic cookers of a total maximum power rating of around 60kW (there is a generous allowance for diversity with cookers).
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Diversity
Note that many single ovens are actually designed these days to run from a normal 13A socket. Depending on the appliance list for the kitchen that can be better provided on the dedicated cooker circuit though.

There are several ways of looking at this. The sockets in the kitchen need to be on a RCD protected feed. The fixed appliances like the oven/hob/cooker, there is no particular benefit to them being, however there is one downside[1].
If new circuits are wired, then they will need to comply with the 17th edition wiring regs. That means that any cables which are buried in the building, but at a depth of <= 50mm, will need some additional protection from accidental damage. Either from a RCD, or via use of a earthed metal shielded cable of some form (e.g. earthshield, SWA, MICC, enclosed in steel conduit). Cables run on the surface or in surface trunking are exempt.
RCBOs for kitchen circuits can be good, since they can be places with highish natural leakages from all the heater elements knocking about (oven, hob, washing machine, tumble drier, dishwasher etc).
As to the consumer unit. Much depends on what is there and whether it has space for the required circuits or even if its still possible to get breakers for it.
[1] The chances of your hob electrocuting you is vanishingly slim, but the chance of an over with an ageing element nuisance tripping a RCD is quantifiable.

Being realistic you need to look carefully at what you have and then come up with a reasonably detailed spec for what you want. Once you have that it will be easier getting comparable quotes (or DIYing!)
Feel free to come back with specific questions or bits you want clarified...
Other articles that may help:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=House_Wiring_for_Beginners http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Consumer_unit http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title th_Edition_Consumer_Units http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=MCB http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=RCD
--
Cheers,

John.

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On 09/05/2012 21:29, John Rumm wrote:

Sorry Brain fart ^^^^
Make that about 60A or 15kW!
--
Cheers,

John.

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Rubber wiring and 2 core lighting go back at least as far as the 1960s. Rubber wiring is more or less always in dangerous condition now, and should be disconnected at the CU. Its not impossible to make it safely usable, if you were in a listed mansion that might be the best option, but for the average house its best just replaced wholesale.
2 core lighting isn't inherently unsafe, but its historic and has a couple of safety gotchas. 1. If the wire is rubber its likely to be in a terrible state, if pvc it should be good. 2. Metal switches, metal trunking and metal light fittings without the [[]] symbol are not ok on 2 core lighting circuits. This does limit light fitting choices.
If you want to modify the 2 core lighting cct (as opposed to adding a new one separate to it) then its time to replace it.

That's an option, fitting a small secondary CU on the end of the cable. It may well be cheaper than fitting new cables back to the CU.

Either is fine, the former probably cheaper

its fine

you don't. Sparks with pound signs in their eyes love to tell people they need unnecessary work.

Not a requirement.

For nearer 80 you could diy it.
NT
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Rubber wiring and 2 core lighting go back at least as far as the 1960s. Rubber wiring is more or less always in dangerous condition now, and should be disconnected at the CU. Its not impossible to make it safely usable, if you were in a listed mansion that might be the best option, but for the average house its best just replaced wholesale.
2 core lighting isn't inherently unsafe, but its historic and has a couple of safety gotchas. 1. If the wire is rubber its likely to be in a terrible state, if pvc it should be good. 2. Metal switches, metal trunking and metal light fittings without the [[]] symbol are not ok on 2 core lighting circuits. This does limit light fitting choices.
If you want to modify the 2 core lighting cct (as opposed to adding a new one separate to it) then its time to replace it.

That's an option, fitting a small secondary CU on the end of the cable. It may well be cheaper than fitting new cables back to the CU.

Either is fine, the former probably cheaper

its fine

you don't. Sparks with pound signs in their eyes love to tell people they need unnecessary work.

Not a requirement.

For nearer 80 you could diy it.
NT
.... except that with DIY, under Part P regs it would have to be certified afterwards at a typical cost of 400.
--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
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"snip

Er, if that is so why does the group have UK in the title?
--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
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Woody wrote:

The OP only posted to alt.home.repair.
Stormin Mormon x posted a reply to free.uk.diy.home in order to help the OP.
--
Adam



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ARWadsworth wrote:

Actually it looks like the OP posted to neither newsgroup:-)
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