Re: The Not Art Art (Was Art)



I thought we were talking about art.

Well, 3 paragraphs above, you wrote 'artistic qualities', which is what I responded to, but now it seems to have "devolved" into 'aesthetic merits'. Changing one's mind or shifting the focus is fair enough, but I'm starting to feel like I might need some crampons. ;)

Do you collect stamps? I've never really cared for geography as a kid, but as an adult am quite taking to it. Perhaps we will visit Tajikistan someday.

Not if the crux of the matter is an internal state. Doubt must be with the artist. I suggest it may be metaphorically akin to the idea of *innocent until proven guilty*, with the qualification that, even if "found guilty" by jury, there will nonetheless, and perhaps always be, that *absolute element of doubt*. Judgements are distinctly different from truth. If you wish to talk about artistic judgements, and confuse judgments with truth, that's your prerogative of course, but the burden of proof is with you, and while you may be right in the final analysis, you may still be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof
OJ Simpson was acquitted, but he'll take the truth to his grave.

Why not? Support your contention.

Then we'll just read it and leave it at that. :)

Just because you are choosing to attempt to willfully do something, doesn't mean you are or will be successful-- at least not completely... And you did mention 'completely' above.
The flouride in your local water is in your bones.
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Warm Worm wrote:

Yes. By 'aesthetic qualities', or 'artistic merit', I mean those qualities of harmony, balance and execution present in the art work itself, such as, for instance, the choice of instruments, the craft of the melody, the harmonic sequences, the tone and tempo of an excerpt of Faure's Requiem. This independantly of the text song in Faure's Requiem (meaning). In architecture, the aesthetic qualities (and so the artistic merit) are much more 'pronounced' than meaning since the aesthetic appreciation of architecture is more about the visual perception of the building and its spaces, than about, for instance, the inscription of quote's in a building's frieze, for its use as a temple, etc.
For me it always goes back to the art work. The intent of the artist is icing on the cake, as far as a work's classification, its merit as a work, or its appreciation in terms of its meaning.

Yes. It's not a valuable collection- I just like good looknig stamps. It's maybe 100,000 stamps, but hasn't been properly organized in sheets yet. Little by little.....

The 'truth' lies in the reality of the work of art, which under normal circumstances of everyday perception people can agree upon as to its characteristics. An artist's calling a work art won't change the characteristics of the work, its aesthetic qualities or its merit as a work of art. The aesthetic qualities can be discussed and judged, and possibly agreed upon, or possibly not, depending on people's capacities to perceive. Of course the judgments aren't truths.

I never did confuse judgments with truth. I wasn't talking about truth anyway. Your thesis was, as I understood it, that the artist's claim of a work as art should be the defining criteria of that work as art. I believe the work itself is where the art lies, since the perception of positive qualities (the aesthetic experience of art) can only come from perceiving and contemplating the art work, not from what the artist has to say about it.
Tomorrow I start calling pencils 'fludduderruns'. Everybody else who speaks English will still call it a pencil, while in Italy, they'll call it 'matita'. None of this changes the merit of a given pencil as a writing instrument. Some pencils will still 6b, some 2F, some 3H, some will have red lead, some cobalt blue, some will have a No.2 stenciled on them, some will have an eraser nib, some will have a better grip, others less so, etc.
Marcello
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"There is no consensus about what constitutes 'art' or who is, or is not, an 'artist' " -- Wikipedia

"Faced with the condemnation of photography as inherently inartistic because of its mechanical and chemical nature, a burgeoning class of photographer, the amateur, vitalizes the impulse to place photography within the pantheon of the traditional arts." http://digitalcommons.libraries.columbia.edu/dissertations/AAI9809784 /
In an abstract and/or absolute sense, yes. With reference to the above; in the absence of a consensus, or with condemnation or opposition, and/or for a thorough investigation/inquiry, etc., consult the artist.

You can believe what you will. I believe that *part* of the work, itself, is where the art lies. But, sure, we can experience it and judge it on our own terms and its own merits, and maybe make inferences about what the artist was going for and getting at, and that's fine.
But where someone, such as one removed from the work's original context, contests it as art, I look to the artist for the answers.

Hear hear.
Richard
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