Help Explain Please

[GarageWoodworks]

Every time a read an article from FWW regarding table saw alignment or miter gauge alignment that involves trial and error test cuts and plastic squares, a little bit of vomit climbs my throat. Never do they mention the more accurate methods that involve a dial indicator. Why? Do they assume their readers are not smart enough to pick it up? Do they think their readers can't afford a dial indicator? Do they themselves not understand the principles behind proper alignment?

exhibit A:

B:

[GarageWoodworks]

[GarageWoodworks]

[Steve Turner]

[GarageWoodworks]

[Leon]

Why, because you don't need a dial indicator to peoperly set up your saw. Granted a dial indicator makes it a bit more precise but for the most part you can not see the cut error that may look huge on a dial indicator, .0005" For example, do you use your dial indicator to set your rip fence when changing widths to cut? Does it really matter if the rip width is 3.01" vs.

3", not normally.

For setting up the saw, a trial cut will show you if the cut is satisfactory or not. A dial indicator does no help you make the adjustment from that point, it simply lets you know how much you need to adjust, my trial cut and using with my eyes does the same thing. I don't need the indicator to tell me that I see a gap.

I do have a dial indicator and used it to check blade alignemnt to the miter slot and arbor run out on my new cabinet saw, that was 11 years ago. No adjustment was necessary and I have not used the dial indicator since.

Further, technique will often completely erase out a dialed in accuracy. For instance my miter gauge has positive stops for the common angles and it makes accurate smooth silky cuts that would satisy any one. When I align my rip fence to the miter slot you would think that it too would yield the same results. Not for me, that alignment is the one that I go with trial cuts to get the smooth and with out tooth mark cuts.

I always go with the resulting cut as the final adjustment vs the measurement indicated by a dial indicator.

[dpb]

Leon wrote: ...

...

Not to mention the cut is the end result that includes blade performance as well as compensates for whatever non-coplanar error there is that the dial indicator builds into the setup adjustment. And, the relatively short distance from front to rear of the blade means and error is amplified over longer cutting distances.

All in all, I'm in agreement the cheep'ncheery trick is as good as any...and better'nmost :)

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[GarageWoodworks]

I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial cuts" saw dust hits the floor.

This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.

Trial cuts =3D 'SLOW' and not as accurate.

[Leon]

I can have mine dialed with a dial indicator before your last "trial cuts" saw dust hits the floor.

This is what you keep missing Leon, 'SPEED', not just accuracy.

I kinda mixed up my answer. I DO NOT make trial cuts to check a fence or miter gauge setting, I make trial cuts only when "setting up/tuning " the saw or fence. No trial cuts necessary except for those occasions, as few and far in between as they seem to be. When working on a project I use an electronic tilt box to set up bevel angles but miters and fence settings are set strictly by the degree and measurement marks on the tool.

Now having said that, IIRC you have a Olson miter gauge.... I would use something to verify that tool each time I changed a setting. I had one, acutally had 3 of them and could never rely on it/them holding a setting when the fence was adjusted to a 45 degree setting with the telescoping angle adjustment bar. There was too much play in all 3 units that cause the gence angle to deviate by as much as 1 degree. I could actually grab the fence and wiggle it back and forth. With the fence at 45 in the other dirrection it was rock solid.

Trial cuts = 'SLOW' and not as accurate.

See above, Trial cuts verify TS tune up, not the cut for a project.

[Leon]

May be Osbourne It has been about 8 years since I had one. ;~)

[GarageWoodworks]

I remember Ed Bennett trying to get you to see the light not to long ago. If he couldn't help you, I haven't a chance.

What's that Texas saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but yada yada yada." :^P

[Leon]

I remember Ed Bennett trying to get you to see the light not to long ago. If he couldn't help you, I haven't a chance.

I am not really asking for help, you asked for the explanation. I explained it.

If you need to use a dial indicator to give you the confidence to set up your cuts then be happy with that method. Every one has their preferred method. For me simpler is better, set up the equipment correctly to start with, buy only equipment that performs as required and trust that equipment. If you don't trust your equipment, adjust accordingly. I personally do not need the dial indicator to make accurate cuts. It is a good tool to have around but I really don't need to use it that often...at least in the last 10 years.

Using a dial indicator to set up cuts reminds me of when I used a tape measure to verify my fence setting from the blade. Now with better equipment I totally trust the markings on the fence rail, the markings and machined index holes on my Kreg miter gauge and both of my Dubby miter sleds. I get results that I believe you would agree are perfectly fine.

Ed has a good product, but seriously, the more ways he can teach one to use it the more likely that he will sell one to some one sitting on the fence while trying to make a decision whether there is a justifiable need to buy. I still nave no need as I do have a dial indicator and don't often use it. If I were having trouble cutting accurate joints I would probably upgrade to Ed's version of the dial iindicator.

I certainly do not need a Festool Domino for making mortises, I have a mortiser, but I wanted one and enjoy using it.

What's that Texas saying, "You can bring a horse to water, but yada yada yada." :^P

May be the old saying,,,,with time and experience comes knowledge.... ;~)

[Larry W]

I have used a dial indicator and a bunch of other methods to check and square a rip fence. I find a combination square works fastest for me and one is allways close at hand. But honestly, I don't think I actually have to _change_ anything more than once a year or so, probably less frequently than that. I image most midrange to good quality table saws are the same.

[Larry Jaques]

I got their email this morning and choked up with the 'stick as a guide to set the TS blade parallel with the fence.'

-- You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. --Jack London

[CW]

I do not use a dial indicator in the (wood) shop and I will put up my results against anyone's. No test cuts needed. Done entirely by feel. I do have a couple of dial travel indicators, one test indicator and a couple of dial calipers in the shop. Rarely ever used

[whit3rd]

I, on the other hand, use dial indicators sometimes (if I want to adjust a tablesaw fence a few thousandths left or right, it's easiest), and dial calipers (a 12" caliper is VERY nice for woodworking) and gauge blocks and story sticks and tape measures and feeler gauges and meter sticks and micrometers and gauge pins and a measuring microscope.

Sometimes the results are best if done by feel; that's why I use feeler gauges to check dovetail fits. It tells me that the fit is off, and also HOW FAR it's off. One adjustment, then straight into production.

[Jack Stein]

Your insights are always right on the money Leon. I don't even own a dial indicator, always considered them more of a machinists tool rather than a woodworkers tool. I understand the need for some accuracy in setting up a table saw, but really, I've been using table saws for 50 years and never needed or wanted a dial indicator. I've made bad cuts many times over the years, but never because I needed a dial indicator to set up my saw. I figure the guy that ground my table on my table saw probably used a dial indicator to set up, and test his work.

I recently broke down an bought a digital caliper for my shop, mainly for more accuracy in measuring metal parts than wood, but the thing drives me nuts with crazy numbers like 95/128ths. Just as Obama has no clue what a trillion is, I have trouble with 5/10000 of an inch of wood, and not one of my projects seem to care.

[Robatoy]

Do try to stay on topic, mmmmokay, Douchenozzle?

[HeyBub]

Analogy is often the best teacher. Would you prefer a metaphor?

"Once upon a time there was a rabbit hole..."

[Jack Stein]

My entire post was on topic including the above snippet, while your response was not. Imagine that, douchebag!