Can you identify type of wood from late 1700's and mid 1800's??

[blueman]

Please help me identify the types of wood flooring in my house.

The main part of the house was built in about the 1860's in Massachusetts while the guest room and kitchen areas were built in the late 1700's.

The floors are unstained and all were sanded and coated with semi-gloss oil-based polyurethane about 5 years ago (except for the guest room).

1. 1st floor and 2nd floor hall (1860's) (I believe both are the same wood, though correct me if I am wrong) http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-1st_floor.jpg http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-2nd_floor.jpg2. 2nd floor bedroom and 3rd floor hall (1860's) (I believe both are the same wood, though correct me if I am wrong) http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-2nd_floor_bedroom.jpg http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-3rd_floor.jpg3. 1st floor stairs (1860's) http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-1st_floor_steps.jpg4. 2nd floor stairs (1860's or may have be redone) http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-2nd_floor_steps.jpg5. Guest room (late 1700's) http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-2nd_floor_guest.jpg6. Kitchen (flooring is new) http://96.252.37.8:8080/public/Wood-Kitchen.jpgThanks for the help!!!

[Nova]

1 thru 5 all look like yellow pine to me. By the color variations (sap/heart wood) my guess would be that the kitchen is cherry and the photo could use some color correction.

[RonB]

I'm with Nova on the Yellow Pine. Not so sure with the Kitchen. If you took pics digitally, you might check your white balance setting against lighting (fluorescent, incandescent, etc) and resubmit. It could be Cherry but the color doesn't look right.

RonB

[Doug Miller]

looks more like white pine.

[Doug Miller]

No, look at the grain. I'm not sure what the kitchen *is*, but unquestionably it is *not* cherry. If it's a hardwood at all -- which I very much doubt -- it's probably elm. IMO, it's spruce, maybe Douglas fir.

[Sonny]

I'm almost positive all of it is Longleaf Pine. Even the new kitchen floor may be reclaimed Longleaf Pine that has been sanded or planed, hence the different "color". What I find odd is that some areas seem to be toe-nailed (kitchen) and others are face-nailed. I wonder if that face-nailing is original (I think not).

Can you cut a piece (even a small piece) and smell it? Pine should still have, at least, a hint of the turpentine smell, even after all these years.

Sonny

[Swingman]

vertical grain (quarter sawn).

[dpb]

... I'm w/ Swing on this 'un.

Highly improbable for SYP at that time in MA.

Better would be to see an underside w/o the finish if possible access to do so but I'd be pretty confident.

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[blueman]

Based on color and grain, I had thought that the 3rd floor hall and 2nd floor bedroom along with probably the 2nd floor guest room (and maybe even the stairs) were pine.

But I am surprised that the 1st and 2nd floor hall flooring is also pine. The grain is so much tighter and straighter and the color so much more orange (vs. the yellow of the other pine) that I was sure it must be a different wood. Could the difference all be explained by being quarter sawn?

The fact that the first and 2nd floor halls (which are the same as the dining room, living room, parlor) is a "better" wood and/or cut makes sense since the old-time Yankees were known to be "cheap" - putting the best wood in the most public spaces.

Similarly, the (new) kitchen floor looks very different - based on color, grain pattern, and presence of streaks of sapwood. I had thought maybe it was fir but that was just a guess. In any case, it looks very different from all the other woods.

Unfortunately, all the floors are quite soft and susceptible to scratching and denting... which would be consistent with woods like pine.

[blueman]

For what it's worth, colors are pretty much the way it looks though perhaps a tinge to orangy (but not much).

[blueman]

It was done with a good digital camera using flash - color is pretty reasonable. I don't think kitchen is cherry either.

All wood in the house is (unfortunately) pretty soft.

I agree that 3rd floor, 2nd floor bedroom, 2nd floor guest and probably the stairs look like pine - based on color and grain. But the 1st and

2nd floor halls look very different from the pine that I am used to. Any toughts there?

[blueman]

I would guess it is a softwood since unfortunately for a kitchen, the floor scratches and dents *very easily*. I would have guessed fir but I am at best a novice at understanding wood...

Any pointers on how to narrow it down?

[dpb]

And inconsistent w/ SYP which is significantly harder than the white pines.

I couldn't see all the pictures (w/ dialup the resolution was such as didn't want to wait) but I'd take Swing's take seriously based on what I did look at.

OK, I did look at the new kitchen just now -- same comment as before wish could see w/o the glare and the finish. It's outside possible fir; if so it should be significantly harder than the pine. But, the finish is such I'd not rule out pine--it's random cut; you can see some are pretty narrow quarter-sawn while other is face grain. The marked contrast there is a hint towards the fir I'll grant. Again, there's quite a lot of glare and the yellow cast is mostly finish/lighting I wager??

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[blueman]

All the floors (except for the 2nd floor guest which is pretty rough) were thoroughly sanded and polyurethaned just over 5 years ago -- so that shouldn't contribute to the difference.

The kitchen (to my novice eyes) looks very different from all the other wood with different grain pattern, color, and streaks of sap vs. heart wood.

Even the 1st and 2nd floor halls (which are the same by the way as the other formal rooms on the first floor) look very different from the the more private areas (2nd floor bedroom, 3rd floor hall, 2nd floor guest). The grain is much tighter and straighter, there are no visible knots, and the color is darker amber vs. the more yellow "pine" color of the private areas. I had always assumed that was consistent with cheap-ole-yankees only using the best wood for the public areas.

Do you think they are really all the same species of pine?

The nailing in the old parts (everything but the kitchen) is indeed face nailed with what appear to be hand made cut nails. In the basement you can see the nails poking through the subfloor by 2-3 inches! and the exposed portion is rusty and a bit curled. I don't know if the face nails were original or added over the years but they certainly don't seem to be anything modern...

I wish I could and I will if I ever find a spare piece...

[John Grossbohlin]

The fact that there is a sub-floor makes me think the finish floors may not original to the structure... This based on what I've seen both here in NY, living in a city with buildings that date from the 1670s through the present, and during my time working in Williamsburg, VA in the restored area. I think it would have been more common to find the floor to be THE floor, both structural and finished, in the late 1700s. The flooring would have been nailed directly to the supporting structure, i.e,. joists, so you wouldn't see the nails. I'm speculating here based on my personal experiences, and I'm sure there are exceptions, but it may be worth exploring this possibility.

For what it's worth, most of the floors look like pine to me and the other fir.

John

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 08:50:32 -0500, the infamous Nova scrawled the following:

Yeah, with tht exception of the first two, which could have been hemlock or just VG pine.

Nah, definitely not cherry. It's a vertical grain, but pine again. All the pics look like softwood. I had pine flooring in my old house in Vista, CA, so the look was familiar when I saw these pics.

3rd floor looks much newer/narrower, as does half the 2nd floor guest. The kitchen is newer, too.

Blueman, if you're having work done on them, check with several older flooring guys who'll have more knowledge about requirements for blending new wood into old. It's an art. I knew a younger carpetlayer who was fairly knowledgeable but he always used the older guys for at least a consult on wood flooring projects, and they always looked good.

-- Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will. -- George Bernard Shaw

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:26:58 -0800 (PST), the infamous RonB scrawled the following:

VG cherry with that look? Please send support pics.

-- Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will. -- George Bernard Shaw

[dadiOH]

It's edge grain - quartered. Lucky you :)

To me, all of it looks more like Douglas fir than pine but I wouldn't think you'd have that, especially that mfrom the late 1700s. The same for the newer...why import yellow pine from the south or west when there was still beaucoup wood locally? White pine maybe? I don't have much experience with that so can't say.

The kitchen isn't a hardwood, looks pretty much like all he rest.

[John Grossbohlin]

Note that I was referring to the part of the house from the 18th century... The latter part was built at a time when sub-floor/finish floor would have been more common.

[blueman]

I think you are right there. Definitely a subfloor (using wide planks) on the part build in mid-nineteenth century. I haven't taken up the floor in the late 18th century part, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if there were no sub-floor there.

Thanks