A dovetail saw choice...

[Brian]

Hey group. First of all, let me get this out in the open. This is not a troll !!!!! So I don't want to read any of that whining and moaning. I'm just a guy looking to start cutting my dovetails by hand and am looking for some personal experiences and insight on which type of saw to pick up. My choice is between a Japanese dovetail saw and a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw. Lonnie Bird's article in Popular Woodworking sort of leaned towards the Japanese saw but also complimented the Lie-Nielsen saw saying that some of his students felt that it gave a truer cut. So, if anyone wants to weigh in on the topic, like I said, I'm just looking for input, not a full on debate or any flame throwing. Thanks in advance, Brian.

[BillyBob]

If you're looking at that class of saws, be sure to look at Adria saws.

[Lowell Holmes]

I have three L/N saws, I suppose I lean that way. :-)

[Gordon Airporte]

I have the LN dovetail saw and two styles of Japanese saw - a ryoba and a dozuki. Either way, you want rip teeth. I've noted several differences.

1. The push saw (the LN) blows out your layout line on one side of the piece and the pull saws blow it out on the other. Personally, I look at the outside face while I'm cutting, and this can be an irritation with the LN. This depends on the wood to an extent.
2. In my experience, the rigid LN is easier to start accurately. The slight cut it gives one the pull stroke is what does it. The japanese saws can't really do this because of how floppy they are.
3. The japanese saws are harder to correct wandering with. This might just be my technique, though. With the Lie-Nielsen you don't really have to aim once the cut is started correctly.

Personally, I would love if LN offered their dovetail saw with the blade reversed for a pull cut.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:23:24 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Brian" quickly quoth:

Get a

razor saw, a Ryoba, Brian. They're $25.95 DELIVERED! (ask for the hardwood version of their 9-1/2" Gyokucho) 1-800-537-7820 (Dept. D2, Fine Woodworking ad)

If you don't like it, put it on Ebay, sell it for $50, and put a small down payment on the LN saur. ;)

I'm sold on the ease of cut, speed, finish, and control I get with the Japanese razor saw...but I'm keeping my Atkins/Disstons.

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[max]

Learning to use the saw is the most difficult part. You can make either work as long as you master the skill. I love Japanese saws. They are very sharp but also very thin which makes it hard to master. I watched a tv wood working show once and they had a piano maker show how he makes veneer. He brought a mahogany 2x4 about 18 inches long. On camera he cut a slice that had to be less than an 1/8 of an inch off the face. It was very accurate. He then hand planed and then scraped it. It was awesome!!!! max

[Andy Dingley]

Either will work. The main thing is that you pick the right sort of saw (rip teeth, correct set, stiff, accurate, easily controlled). There are at least two ways to achieve this, as you describe, and there's much more importance about using _either_ of these than there is about _which_ one to use.

It's hard to find a good Japanese saw for cutting dovetails. It's easy to find a good Japanese saw for tenons, but dovetails are harder to find. You want a full back. You also need teeth that can rip - now relatively few Japanese saws offer suitable rip teeth and although their crosscut teeth will rip better than Western crosscut teeth, they need to be the right size. You want the right size of teeth, so the micro-dozukis are out. You may also find that a deeper blade away from the handle gives better steering, because the handle isn't parallel to the teeth line. Mainly though, your sawig technique needs to be good. Japanese saws with rod handles don't have the steering through wrist action that Western saws with bow handles do, so you need an accurate elbow action that pulls the saw straight.

On the whole I wouldn't recommend a Japanese saw for cutting dovetails unless you already have a Japanese saw for crosscutting and you're more familiar with the type.

Japanese saws _must_ have rigid handle attachments, and this means wood not plastic. Those plastic handled Shark and Bear saws rattle!

Personally I used to use Japanese saws for everything, including dovetailing. Now I use a pre-war Preston dovetail saw for dovetails (small, very shallow slightly tapered blade below the back, and small rip teeth). I still use Japanese saws for the rest.

[Nate Perkins]

"Brian" wrote in news:MGc4f.49019$ [e-mail]:

I've taught some classes on doing handcut dovetails. I always bring in a few saws, including a dozuki or two, an old Disston #4, an couple of old English-made backsaws, a gent saw, etc. I also have a LN Independence. I've found that some guys prefer the dozuki, and others gravitate to the Western saws. It doesn't matter, all can work equally well. You just want something that's sharp with well set teeth. The only thing I try to steer students away from is the gents saw. IMHO it's easier to develop bad habits on a gents saw.

My own favorite is a little Groves and Sons dovetail saw with an open style handle (like a mini version of the LN Independence). I sharpen my and set my saws myself, using instructions from the web (can't remember where I got them, maybe from a website by Tom Law?).

If you want something off the shelf ready to go, I'd look at the Lee Valley dozukis, the Lie Nielsen Independence, or the Adria backsaws.

Good luck!

[arw01]

I took Rob Cosman's Training the hand class in July. I came with a Lee Valley Dozuki. I left with a Lie Nielson dovetail saw.

The Lee Valley would cut "true" but was ragged. Could likely be fixed with a bit of stoning of the side of the teeth. There must be one or two that were mis-set from the factory.

The Lie Nielson is the last dovetail saw you will ever need. It's is excellent, I've also heard the PAX, and Adria saws are excellent. The Pax can be bought from Lee Valley and returned if it is not up to snuff.

The second problem with the Japanese saws, is they are SLOW, ESPECIALLY if you get into maple or even cherry. Nearly 2 times as many strokes, which makes it easier to misguide on your own.

[Andy Dingley]

Use bigger teeth. Japanese saws have limited chip clearance (compared to a Western saw of the same pitch) and so they'll quite easily block up. Because they vary the tooth size along the blade you can still start one, even if it's quite a large "working" tooth size.

They'll work maple too, but you need a blade that's sharp. Many Japanese saws, particularly the lesser brands after a few months use, use a ot of their initial sharpness.

[fredfighter]

As you probably know a dozuki has crosscut teeth. IIRC, 'dozuki' is the Japanese word for the shoulder of a tenon, the dozuki saw is made for those shoulder cuts. However it does a pretty good job ripping. I have a Japanese saw with the reinfornced spine and ripping teeth, but cannot remember what it is called. It is pretty much the Japanese counterpart to an English gent's saw for dovetails.

How, do you use a mirror?

One objection to pull saws is that the sawdust comes out the side facing the worker and can obscure the layout line.

[Gordon Airporte]

We're probably talking about the same thing -

Lee Valley has one are the first two google hits for "rip tooth dozuki", so whether or not there's a better term for them this seems to be the convention.

Hm, I put the board in the side vise and just look down at it, leaning over it slightly... This seemed natural to me, so that's how I do it. If my bench was much higher I would probably be doing it the other way.

[Owen Lawrence]

I've been eyeing those at Lee Valley:

do they show two saws here, under the "Dovetail Saw" heading? Maybe they're just grouped by make. Left fo my own decision I'll probably buy the

20tpi rip saw. At roughly half the cost of a LN, it's the most serious coin I'll be spending. Is there any reason why I might regret the decision in the long run, and end up saving up for a LN?

- Owen -

[fredfighter]

That may be the one I have as it uses the same handle as my dozuki. However I recall a different word for the Japanese dovetail saw, beginning with a 't' perhaps? Somewhere on one of the vendor's webpages it was reffered to as "the closest thing to a Western dovetail saw" to words to that effect.

[Ken Muldrew]

If you are already accomplished enough with a Japanese saw to cut to a line, then by all means try dovetailing with it. But if your experience with Japanese saws is more limited, then I would strongly recommend a saw with a proper handle (a stick is not a proper handle). The extra control will make all the difference. The Lie-Nielson looks like an excellent choice.

Ken Muldrew [e-mail] (remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

[Mike]

Hi Brian, I was in your situation earlier this year, and here's what I did (sort of long-winded!)

I was torn between the LN saws and the Japanese saws. Since I live in Alameda, I'm able to visit the Japan Woodworker to test-drive their saws. They have all of their Japanese saws out on a counter with scrap wood so you can sample how they cut. I chose to get the japanese saws and bought 2 of them (rip and cross-cut). They cut very nicely, but using a japanese "pull" saw is very different and takes some getting used to.

Last summer, I took a course at the NWS with Christian Becksvoort making a shaker clock. We hand-cut the dovetails in this class and I was the only one with Japanese saws. Most everyone had LN saws including Mr. Becksvoort. (see

if you're unsure who he is)

After all that, I found that the Japanese saws are so thin that they will tend to follow the grain of the wood sometimes when cutting dovetails because of the shallow angle. Does this make sense? I found that I struggled to make a straight cut because the blade wanted to follow the grain of the wood. Granted, my technique was probably as much of an influence here as anything, but it was difficult. I tried one of the LN saws and did much better, so I have since bought LN saws and use them now.

In short, both are good, but there might be a greater learning curve with the Japanese saws than traditional saws. Also, you don't sharpen Japanese saws; you replace the blades. I'm not sure how much of an issue that is for you.

I hope this helps you.

Mike Dembroge Alameda, CA

[fredfighter]

The technical term for 'proper handle' is tote. Of course if you had just written "I would strongly recommend a saw with a tote." probably someone would be posting the question "What's a tote?" while others would assume you meant a toolbox used to store and carry the saw.

[Phisherman]

Give each one a try and see what works best for you. I have tried a hack saw (!) to cut dovetails and it works fairly well. My favorite is a 25-year-old Sears (Craftsman) dovetail saw. I like Lie-Nielson products, although these can be a little pricey but worth it.

Half-blind dovetails are common, and for that get yourself a decent skew chisel. Most important, sharpen your chisels!