wiki: Neon

Input welcome

NT

==Neon indicator lamp== [[image:Neon 5503-2.jpg|right|200px]]

These tiny lights are used as indicators. They've been replaced by LEDs in modern electronics, but are still useful for mains power indication jobs such as light switches that are remote from the [[light]] they control.

They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when the main light is off.

===Types=== Indicator neons come in these types of package:

- just the bare neon

- bare neon plus resistor, shrink wrapped

- in small round housing

- in rectangular housing about 13x28mm

- 4 neons with resistors built into a plastic square ring that mounts behnd a light switch

- MK gridswitch part

All of these except the first normally come with built in resistor.

===Mounting=== Ways to mount bare neon indicators: # Drill a tiny hole, and poke the tip of the neon into it # Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in neons and resistor # Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole. These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green. # In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim locations, light output is low.

Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.

Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes without a suitable punch is a real pita. The housing simply presses in place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that hold it in place.

Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate.

Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.

===Resistor=== Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor, usually 220k for 240v operation. Failure to do so results in prompt failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons without it are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is built in.

If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical

0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors in series.)

==Neon flickering candle lamp== Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it operates. These give out very little light.

==Neon screwdriver== An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]

==Obsolete neon devices== ===Sign lighting=== Neon gas filled shaped tubes were historically once in advertising, coloured to produce red, yellow, orange or green light. Modern coloured tubing is [[fluorescent]].

===Neon lamp=== Long obsolete, neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low level general [[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange.

===Neon tuning indicator=== A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the glow is proportional to the current through them.

===Neon regulator=== Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3 terminal neons were once used as voltage limiters in some old dial telephones.

==Light colour== The yellow-orange light is a mixture of red, orange, yellow and green light. Colour filters are often added externally to give any of these colours. 'Blue neons' really contain other gases.

==Life expectancy== [[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]

Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last longest in situations where they're not on all the time.

Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure mode is blackening of the bulb. The neon pictured above still works electrically, but emits no light.

A secondary failure mode is loss of emission. Loss of emission causes [[dim]]ming, flickering, then failure.

Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so life can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current gives a 44% gain in lifetime.

[[Category:Lighting]]
Reply to
NT
Loading thread data ...

which is not great as most of the light is emitted from the sides (specifically, from around the cathode, as at the low currents these operate, visible light is only generated in the cathode fall region).

Green ones are not neon, and use a fluorescent phosphor with some other gas discharge. The discharge colour is dim white from the end of the glass where there's no phosphor, but the green phosphor is brighter. (OK, you can get neon lamps with green lenses, but the light output isn't anything like green - brown would be a better description;-)

Incidently, neon indicators all have argon in them too, or the breakdown voltage would be too high to use on 120V US mains. The argon reduces the breakdown voltage to 90V and the running voltage to 60V. The real green ones can't be used on 120V mains as the breakdown voltage is too high.

That would be a 1mA indicator. The smaller ones run at lower currents, I think down to 0.25mA in the smallest.

These work by underrunning the neon so that there isn't enough current to generate a discharge over the whole cathode, and convection, photons, and other random events cause the discharge area to move over the electrode.

Other gasses, sometimes with phosphors, were used to generate the other colours (and still are, in so far as the technology has mostly been replaced by LEDs now).

sputtering of the electrodes.

I don't think there's any emission material used in neon indicator lamps.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

I would be tempted to use an LED with maybe a "wattles dropper". I haven't actually seen the configuration but a LED is a far superior light source and the power consumption while being greater would still have a negligible effect on the utility bill.

Incidentally I agree totally with the previous poster. I have used "green" neon indicators. any resemblance to green totally disappears on power up.

HN

Reply to
HN

nonetheless it works very well in practice. The visible spot is tiny but much intenser than seeing the neon side on. The optics are a bit beyond me, I presume the glass redirects the light somehow.

corrected, ta

ok, I'll include it

NT

Reply to
NT

The downside with LEDs is theyre a lot more complex. You cant rely on a capacitor balalst with LEDs because they produce a large surge current. You cant put them in series with a lap without adding complications because again filament lamps produce a large surge. Neons are as easy as can be, hence they're still used for mains indication.

NT

Reply to
NT

The oddest use of a neon indicator I ever encountered was the stereo light on a 6 transistor retro-fit stereo decoder board I bought in about 1969. There was an overwind on the 19KHz tuned circuit that produced enough voltage to illuminate it when the pilot-tone was present. (It was still the practice of the broadcasters at that time to kill the subcarrier and pilot tone during mono programmes).

Reply to
Graham.

,

I agree. With the addition of a zener and a resistor though, you would still have a cheap low current indicator.

One downside of neons is their sensitivity. I watched an electrician some years back struggling to diagnose an o/c neutral. He didn't realise that the indicator was like via leakage to ground :-)

HN

Reply to
Archibald

Neon bulbs, as they age, become light sensitive, which is particularly annoying if they are use to illuminate light switches: If there is ambient light, they glow, if it is dark, they don't...

A reference here:

formatting link
Thomas Prufer

Reply to
Thomas Prufer

formatting link
is on 120V mains, where they are marginal anyway (need dosing with argon to work reliably). You won't see this on 200-240V mains.

Neon lamps can be used as crude photon detectors if you try running them just under their striking voltage, and rely on photons to strike them. That's basically what's happening there, and the US have same problem with fluorescent lamp starters, which they solve by adding a small level of radioactivity to them.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a short circuit. I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all those little glowing stabiliser neons. does anyone rember the old Decimo digital clocks with giant figures. they used neons poked in the back of the segmants opperated by a sequencer attached to the clock mechanism. The snag was that the neons tended to go black inside and then had to be changed one at a time. Very time consuming. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

A well known problem. The early Bush colour TV's had a thyristor triggered through a neon bulb [a CR time constant delayed the build up to the neon striking voltage, thus changing the point in the mains cycle where conduction would start].

It was a pile of junk! The Voltage, hence picture size was dependent on the light shinind through the slots in the TV back.

Even when the neon was painted black there were still problems.

Only when they changed to a diac did the problems diminish.

The problem was known as the BT106 bounce. Sadly the BT106 was the thyristor. The real culprit never got a mention.

Years later at Uni studying physics, we had a lunatic experiment identifying CR networks using a neon and a stopwatch. This being in a brightly lit lab with flourescent lighting.

My errors were extremely high and as usual the lecturer assumed it was down to human error.

I repeated the experiments in my workshop. both with similar lighting and with just enough daylight to see what I was doing.

Once again my similar results showed that university lecturers have no idea of the real world.

It also suggested that the rest of the students altered the figures to suit the theory, but they new what to aim for and didn't work in an MOD calibration laboratory, where measurements were recorded even if they did not meet expectations.

HN

Reply to
HN

formatting link
>This is on 120V mains, where they are marginal anyway (need dosing

Scintillating stuff Andrew ;-)

Reply to
Graham.

I hate to disillusion, but that's a GEC PSU. Same principle but more reliable [that is, if they ever produced a properly soldered double sided board].

I forget the Bush chassis, maybe an A823. The Bush was single standard, came in a variety of obcene colours and didn't have a reference oscillator for the decoder.

The Bush PSU was very memorable, the 18V zener to the decoder was earthed only by chassis to print contact, so powering up with the PSU in "visible print mode", did the SL901B in. A dashed expensive chip in those days.

HN

Reply to
HN

I wonder what chassis that was, I suspect it was a dual standard colour set and therefore slightly outside my experience.

Retrieved from the gas meter cupboard is the remains of the PSU from a later single-standard R.B.M. set.

formatting link
neon to blame, but it certainly was troublesome in spite of (or maybe because of) its simplicity.

I thought it did use a BR100 in the gate circuit, but I can't see it (or where it was) so maybe I was mistaken.

Reply to
Graham.

I don't remember that, in fact I don't remember any domestic electronics that used neon stabilisers. I certainly used them in my home built transmitters, to stabilise the VFO HT. 150B2 comes to mind, with a B9A base.

Little indicator neons sometimes formed an active part of the circuitry in tellys to "latch" the selected channel, as well as to indicate it was selected. Granada TV Rental had a number of sets that did that, we called it Sensomatic channel change. You just touched one of 8 metal squares with your finger. In damp houses they would change randomly, and when the well used neons aged, usually 1 & 3 it became difficult to select those channels.

Reply to
Graham.

Tomorrow is the 27 Aug, my 59th birthday, or as one kind friend didn't hesitate to remind me, at midnight tonight I will enter my 60th year.

I need say no more.

Yes I remember now, the Bush has two pots, the second one for over voltage threshold. The correct set-up procedure was a bit messy involving (IIRC) adding a resistor, so people had their own empiric method of setting it.

Reply to
Graham.

e:

I think GEC sets of a certain era must have been soldered by monkeys. Its hard to believe even a young child could have soldered them so badly.

NT

Reply to
NT

It was largely because the print was plated on rather than etched off. It was almost impossible to rework without it lifting off the board.

Reply to
Graham.

rote:

how does that stop one soldering to it properly? ISTR the holes being excessively big too

NT

Reply to
NT

latest version...

Neon

=3D=3DNeon indicator lamp=3D=3D [[image:Neon 5503-2.jpg|right|200px]] [[image:Glimmlampe_spektrum.jpg|right|200px]]

These tiny lights are used as indicators. They've been replaced by [[LED]]s in modern electronics, but are still useful for mains power indication jobs such as light switches that are remote from the [[light]] they control.

They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when the main light is off.

=3D=3D=3DTypes=3D=3D=3D Indicator neons come in these types of package:

- just the bare neon

- bare neon plus resistor, shrink wrapped

- in small round housing

- in rectangular housing about 13x28mm

- 4 neons with resistors built into a plastic square ring that mounts behnd a light switch

- MK gridswitch part

All of these except the first normally come with built in resistor.

=3D=3D=3DMounting=3D=3D=3D Ways to mount bare neon indicators: # Drill a tiny hole, and poke the tip of the neon into it # Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in neons and resistor # Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole. These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange & yellow. # In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim locations, light output is low.

Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.

Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes without a suitable punch is excessively slow. The housing simply presses in place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that hold it in place.

Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate, an are held by the faceplate screws.

Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.

=3D=3D=3DResistor=3D=3D=3D [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]

Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor, usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in prompt failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons without it are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is built in.

If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical

0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors in series.)

Neons do come in other current ratings, but the classic 1mA NE-2 lamp is most common. If the light source moves about unstably in the lamp its running below rated current.

=3D=3DNeon flickering candle lamp=3D=3D Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it operates. These give out very little light.

They work by underrunning the neon so that there isn't enough current to generate a discharge over the whole cathode, and convection, photons, and other random events cause the discharge area to move over the electrode.

=3D=3DNeon screwdriver=3D=3D [[image:Phasenpruefer_01-l_KMJ.jpg|right|200px]]

An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]

=3D=3DSign lighting=3D=3D [[image:Ohare_Neon_Walkway.jpg|right|200px]]

Neon gas filled shaped tubes were used in advertising, coloured to produce red, yellow & orange light. Modern coloured tubing uses other gases too and is mostly [[fluorescent]].

=3D=3DObsolete neon devices=3D=3D [[image:Nixie2.gif|right]]

=3D=3D=3DNeon lamp=3D=3D=3D [[image:NE-34 LAMP.JPG|right|200px]]

Neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low level general [[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange. Sometimes the electrodes were shaped into novelty designs. They were even used as part of tv displays in 1920s mechanically scanned tvs. They fell out of favour in the 1930s.

=3D=3D=3DNeon tuning indicator=3D=3D=3D A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the glow is proportional to the current through them.

=3D=3D=3DNeon regulator=3D=3D=3D Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3 terminal neons (NE-77) were once used as voltage limiters in some old dial telephones.

=3D=3DLight colour=3D=3D The orange light is a mixture of red, orange & yellow light. Colour filters are often added externally to give any of these colours, or to improve on/off contrast with orange. Green, blue and white neons really contain other gases, and fluoresce.

Neon filled neons with a green plastic cover also exist, but don't actually produce green light.

=3D=3DEnergy efficiency=3D=3D Neons are several times the efficacy of filament lamps. However the power levels used are so miniscule as to be of no consequence. Neon indicators don't warm up in use.

=3D=3DLife expectancy=3D=3D [[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]

Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last longest in situations where they're not on all the time.

Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure mode is blackening of the glass bulb due to electrode spluttering. The neon pictured above still works electrically, but emits no light.

Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so life can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current gives a 44% gain in lifetime.

=3D=3DNeon v LED=3D=3D Neon's one advantage is being able to run direct off mains voltage.

As indicators, [[LED]]s have the advantage of longer life, a range of colours and greater light output. LEDs run at low voltage, neons at mains voltage, making a neon much easier to use to indicate mains.

As low level lighting, [[LED]]s have all the advantages except for needing a low voltage supply.

=3D=3DMore info=3D=3D Most neon lamps contain neon and argon. These strike at about 90v and run at around 60v (some do run higher). Higher efficiency neons once used for lighting use pure neon gas for better output - but their higher strike voltage of around 120v precludes their use on 110v mains.

Green and blue also strike at higher voltages, and can't be used on

110v.

Failed sodium lamps can be used as giant neon bulbs at suitably low current.

[[Category:Lighting]]
Reply to
NT

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.