The bungalow - update, April 2009

[Tim S]

Well...

The strip out and and cleaning took longer than envisioned (surprise!)

But as all the walls and ceilings downstairs are stripped and washed, picture rail and skirting removed and floor coverings stripped, plus I've got the roof well on the way to cleaned out to make access more pleasant (we had a lot of mouse and rat droppings and 2" of debris in places - very hard to work in that sort of mess).

I was feeling like:

as I'd had lots of materials delivered this week, with big savings:

my choice of some RS DIN rail terminals to make up lighting junction boxes (wiring centers for 1-3 rooms) was also starting to look good:

pics and theory to follow later)

I was definately

right one I think)

...

Then I discovered:

made me:

rot's not excessive, but it's gone a good inch into a 3" beam. Given the beam is rather important in it's holding up of the roof, and will get buried in plumbing and wiring soon, I think it's best to replace it now, while we can.

Howvere, there is not a fecks chance in hell I'm changing a 5m highly important beam on my own. Not when a c*ck up will more than likely have a section of the roof falling off.

So, phoned Pete the Builder. He has insurance and access to 3 men, so we'll see what the quote's like. Materials are bugger all. It's going to be blokes for a day hopefully, so I'm not expecting an outrageous sum.

I can see how to replace it, but I don't like fiddling with structural things - well, not structural things that are currently in use! Happy with gas, electricity and plumbing, so I feel justified in wimping out with this...

Cheers

Tim

[brass monkey]

> And as I'd had lots of materials delivered this week, with big savings: >

then

At least you don't have this crap in your loft -

[Tim S]

brass monkey coughed up some electrons that declared:

that glass wool under the granular stuff?

It looked so much neater in the Reader's Digest DIY book, when it was neatly laying between and level with the 4" joists!

Lot's of fun when cutting downlighter holes too I expect (I just get a rat crap in the eye).

...

[Andrew Gabriel]

Many years ago, my uncle had that in his loft. It used to move around like sand dunes if there was any wind, and of course, when you wanted to go up there, it was impossible to open the loft hatch without several bucket loads of it pouring out onto the landing and down the stairs.

[brass monkey]

> Is that glass wool under the granular stuff?

Well, it itches and was installed from a roll :)

[brass monkey]

You have it in one, it's a real PITA. Imagine how many bagfulls it'd take to get rid of it.

[Tim S]

brass monkey coughed up some electrons that declared:

Just get your soffits replaced. By a company you hate. After you've just swept the granules to the edges of the roof...

[John Rumm]

An inch into the beam running horizontally or vertically?

I think in either case, as long as you have stopped the water getting into it, I would be inclined to leave it alone. It does not look too bad.

To restore the strength, I would add a (I am guessing at the size here) a 8" long 4x2" or similar in the gap to the left of the square upright, and nail through the upright into it, plus skew nail the infill to the

6x3 on its other side.

If you are worried about the horizontal member, then plant something on the side of it that bridges the rotten bit and spans a bit either side (onto the joists either side at least).

[Tim S]

John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:

The top inch or inch+half layer is knackered for about a foot either side of both verticals. There's a small amount of good material near the back edge, which is probably why the verticals haven't started punching down through the beam yet.

It looks old damage - quite dry.

It's of course hard to feel wood in a photo, but there's a lot of load on those two verticals and there isn't a single beam over the top - just a lot of short beams nailed into the side of the verticals (stupid crap way to build it).

If it were a single beam over the top, then failure of any upright (or two) may lead to sagging but not collapse. The way mine's built is if those two centre verticals fail, several dormer rafters lose most of their support.

That was something I was considering as an option. As I'm building the wall out in thickness, I can afford another 75mm in front of this one I'll see what the quote's like for direct replacement - I'd rather do it "properly" once and for all if possible. But other solutions remain an option.

Cheers

Tim

[Andrew Gabriel]

If I was to get rid of it, I think I would try constructing a cyclone separator from a dustbin, and use it as a first stage filter in front of a vacuum cleaner. Probably stand that on the landing, and use some drainpipe up into the loft, with flexible hose on the end to vacuum it all up. If you also have fibreglass or rockwool up there, might be inclinded to ensure the vacuum outlet discharges outdoors, so you don't end up with any glass fibre fragments blown into the house.

[Tim S]

Andrew Gabriel coughed up some electrons that declared:

I haven't found that to be an issue with a VAX cylinder, though there are 4 filters, including the bag, between the crap and the room.

On an aside, I've also found that after abusing a VAX, and the fine plaster dust has blocked the domed cone paper filter up, take it out of the housing, go outside and holding the top edge of filter with fingers, beat the bottom half with a brush (dustpan and brush type of brush) in a sharp flicking motion. Repeat both sides, turn upside down and repaet again.

So far I'm managed about 4-5 re-juvinations of the cone filter instead of chucking it. Which is good as I get a new one in a box of 5 bags.

Suction remains excellent after a good beating.

Cheers

Tim

[fred]

In article , Tim S writes

It appears that piece is only a spreader plate with the load being borne by the deep joist beneath. The only reason that it is 3" is that the verticals are not aligned on the joists so it needs to spread the load. I cant see why this piece needs to be a continuous length and replacement should be pretty straightforward with some propping or temporary load spreading measures.

Only you can see how damaged the wood really is but if it relatively superficial then I'd consider strengthening the existing setup much as John suggests or perhaps by creating a compound beam with 1/2" ply plates jn a 8' span across the affected area, about 12" high with plenty of long screws in to the original members. Don't worry about the extra thickness on the front, just finish in 1/2" plasterboard butted up against the outer ply plate.

[Tim S]

I think I will add something, now daughter's at school and I've got a few minutes spare.

I approach these things on a sort of cost benefit/risk/future inconvenience way.

Here, the cost of a proper replacement may not be excessive (we'll see) whilst everything's open and exposed.

That cost will go up massively once it's covered in pipes and insulation and plasterboard.

OTOH, on the risk side - I don't like the wall construction - they've been d*ckheads regarding the top beam (or lack of) so I don't have much faith in other parts of the structure compensating for a deficiency right where the rot is. One other thing, I should have mentioned, is that some of the joists that beam's sitting on near the rot are 2 stacked 4x2's, and others are 8x2's. So it's more important that the beam remain continuous to spread the load.

This leads me to:

Plan A: Proper replacement - then we know we're good.

Plan B: If Plan A costs stupid money, then I'll consider a second timber in front of the bad one. The only issue is how to transfer the support from the uprights onto this. Probably short stubs of timber (8" at most[1]) well screwed or bolted onto the fronts of all the existing uprights.

[1] Any longer and I'll foul the plumbing.

Does Plan B sound sensible? It would look like:

============ Roof ===^^^======================= Rafter ********************************************* | | | | | | --- | | | | | | | | |D||C| | || | -- -- |B||A|

A is new beam viewed from end.

B is old beam. Both 75x75mm or so.

The original vertical D is bolted through to a short bit C which sits on A. Would add some sort of spiked gripper plate between C and D before bolting for good measure.

?

Cheers

Tim

[Tim S]

fred coughed up some electrons that declared:

Hi fred,

Some of the joists are double stacked 4x2's - I forgot to mention that. There are several layers of bodgery in this dormer (lack of ventilation was one of them). I'm not really happy not having a single beam as it's compensating for some dodgey practicises in other parts. I'd have put a single beam on top of the wall too, if I'd built it.

Seems deep in areas very close to where verticals are.

Sadly, whilst I see how that would work, it's not an option. I'd lose my only access to that void with 12" high ply accross the full width.

I can afford to lose 50-75mm of thickness - I'll be facing off this wall with 50-75mm celotex in a couple of years, as well as 25mm between the uprights.

I don't see a reason to not investigate doing it properly yet. I might change my mind when I see the quote... But a proper fix is obviously the best way to my mind...

Cheers

Tim

[Man at B&Q]

I use a small hand held hoover to hoover the VAX's filter.

MBQ

[Andrew Gabriel]

Dysons are excellent for plaster, which is perfect for cyclonic separation, except if you care about the appearance of the Dyson (it will sand-blast the inside of the dust container so it's no longer clear). The other thing is that when it's full of plaster or brick dust, the container is much heavier than it was designed for, and I imagine if you hold it just by the handle, you might break it. (Like I said before, would love an industrial version.)

[Tim S]

Andrew Gabriel coughed up some electrons that declared:

I wandered around Currys half thinking of getting a cyclone jobbie for this job. Eventually I decided 100 quid +/- would buy a lot of VAX bags and filters, so I let it go...

I'm still amazed how much gratuitous abuse a Vax will take - nails, glass, lumps of brick as will go up the hose...

Cheers

Tim

[Andrew Gabriel]

None of the cyclones other than Dyson work, because he has all the patents for making a cyclonic separator small enough to be part of a portable vacuum cleaner and actually work. (It's relatively easy to make large cyclonic separators and they've been around for decades, but making small ones which filter right down to fine particles was his main challenge.)

If you use a Dyson, you have to bare in mind it wasn't designed for use on a building site. Having said that, my DC04 has handled enormous amounts of brick and plaster dust/rubble -- although it wasn't bought for that at all, that's pretty much all it's been used for, because nothing else could cope.

[PeterC]

I've a George (Henry's big brother) and stopped using bags at all after the second one. They cut the suction so much when about a third full that they would have been a major expense. There's only 1 filter now, so not good for asbestos!, but a sideways rattling action across the wheely bin 'cleans' the filter. The main 2 advantages of George are long, larger, hose and a long flex; it'll also suck up water and 'clean' carpets. Been going for 20+ years, but I don't disturm it very often.

Is this a change of subject? ;-)

[Jules]

That seems sensible. Hard to guess the whole setup from the photo and how much room you have to work with, but might adding some extra angled beams top to bottom help to distribute the load a little more evenly above the joists (rather than between them as the current setup looks to be)?

cheers

Jules