Solar/wind?

[The Natural Philosopher]

You can get a large cylinder full of 30C water in a few miniutes at a couple of shillings of electricity cost.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes. I may ignore it, but I don't fail to consider it.

My FIL has been quoted and paid a deposit on a £4000 installation system that *by the manufacturers own brochure*, operating at 100% efficiency, will save him at most £200 a year. The salesman claimed it would halve his domestic heating oil costs, running at around £2500 a year.

So did all the 'satisfied customers' who acted as reference sites.

I wonder how much of a service contract they sting him for as well. I bet it will be 200 quid a year..

>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thats why ther e are so many poor peole and rich double glazing salesmen.

Quite the revers: so many people have an emotional bias towards renewables that they are easy meat for any salesman. I guess that's what your line must be,.

On the contrary, that is a complete lie: as you know I spent a long time pointing out why they are an expensive waste of time and only work when highly subsidised by the taxpayer, who gets no benefit whatsoever.

>

[The Natural Philosopher]

I've only found one domestic technology apart from super insulation, that has any real impact in the UK climate and that's heat pumps, and the snake oil salesmen have already moved in on that one.

[Cerumen]

I have a 12 volt compressor that runs on 3 amps and of course it has a thermostat so is not continuously pulling power as peltier units do. According to the manual to maintain 5C at ambient 20C it runs 10% of the time

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:44:27 +0100 someone who may be The Natural Philosopher wrote this:-

Incorrect.

You spent a lot of time digging a deeper hole as your claims became ever more bogus.

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:17:36 +0100 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-

It is I think revealing that the points which others have made before on the reasons for installing such things remain unanswered. Instead what is presented is the lie that the reason people install these things is to feel good.

[Andy Hall]

Given that we know that they are not economically viable in less than their operational lifetime, what other reasons for purchase are there other than feel good factor?

[Bob Eager]

The look good factor.Coupled with self importance.

[dennis]

I reckon about 12 minutes to get 225l 10C hotter with a 3kW heater. My boiler will do it in less than three minutes at a cost of less than 1 pence. If that is the standard by which solar water heating is a success I won't bother. I expect it to give me 70C water to be worthwhile.

I priced up a ground source heat pump the other day.. about £1000 for the heat pump. about 2000-3000 to have a 75m borehole done in the local mud stone. I want a DIY way of drilling a 75m borehole in mud stone if anyone has any ideas? If I used say four 25m boreholes how far apart would they need to be to give a suitable heat store?

[RobertL]

=2E..unless you live off-grid. When I lived on a boat with no access to mains electricity, I found that solar PV panels were far more useful than wind turbines. I had about 5 square metres of PV panel on the roof and this did run the lights, TV,radio and the pumps (but not heating of course).

Robert

[Andy Hall]

You can buy an awful lot of gas or even electrically heated hot water for ten grand.

[Bruce]

Correction, it should be able to fulfil that need. An independent, unbiased consultancy service charging modest rates for impartial advice would be of enormous help.

[Bruce]

An SDS drill with a 75m long bit?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes. You can get a few watts out of PV and normal solar hot water panels. If that is enough, then they are sensible.

[Rod]

The contact in Zimbabwe might not be ideal at the moment but the PDF does have lots of techniques.

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:10:36 +0100 someone who may be "dennis@home" wrote this:-

Nice try. However, it is even easier than usual to see through that distortions.

As anyone can see from the bit I have left in, Mary didn't say that the maximum temperature solar heated water will reach is 30C.

The temperature solar heated water will reach obviously depends on various factors. 70C is no great problem with reasonable sunlight.

Nice try.

[Bob Eager]

That lets out Mr. Hansen's masters, then.

[The Natural Philosopher]

In winter? harder..much harder...

Solar works well in a mediterranean climate when very little house heating is needed and hot water is the primary energy use: here in the UK its not cost effective at any prices I have been able to find.

At best, a 4 sq meter of panel represents less than a £200 a year energy generation at current OIL prices..which are slightly above electricity off peak prices. And above gas.

Do the sums yourself, on average insolation, and units of energy generated.

Oh. You dont do sums do you?

[John Rumm]

Could you suggest some other motivations then?