Sauter Valves

Some time back a number of people were installing Sauter valves on their CH systems. I am looking initially at the BXL valve body and the AXCM 117 230v actuator. Anyone find the best/cheapest dealer to buy from for one off sales?
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I bought a number of the motorised actuators a few years ago and shopped around for the best price then. That came from Controls Center (i.e. the specialised controls operation of Wolseley).
I am not sure that Controls Center exists as a separate operation any longer. Possibly it has been consolidated with Plumb Center.
Do you mean AXCM 117? I can't see such a part number on their site.
The AXM series is the normal motorised drive in two versions:
- AXM117F series - fixed positions
- AXM117S series - continuous using a dc control signal.
It looks as though the F series has a 230v model.
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Yep.
Here is the actuator. AXM 117 F200, 230v modulating actuator (230v one way, 230v the other way) - fixed positions until the controller decides to nudge it along one way or the other. http://www.sauterautomation.co.uk/pdm/docs/en_mv_en435901.pdf
3-way BXL modulating valve body. http://www.sauterautomation.co.uk/pdm/docs/en_ds_en464072.pdf
Nothing on Plumb Centers site.
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OK, so it was AXM. F series.
I had to call Controls Center (as it was), plus a few others. These were not stock items, but they came back with prices in an hour or so and had next day availability.
If you're hoping to achieve a form of "analogue" control with an F series, the results are not going to be all that good. I tried this as a first experiment. The problem is that the actuator is essentially dumb. It has no feedback mechanism and no self calibration. Therefore all you can do is to run the motor to an end stop and time how long it takes to reach the other end The trouble is that an external controller won't know this, so it has to be done visually and by listening to the actuator motor. I found that with nudging it backwards and forwards without going to the ends, the calibration was lost quite quickly, especially if the steps are small. It can be improved by running the valve to an end stop periodically and then going from there. Overall, it wasn't really satisfactory.
The S series doesn't give feedback to the controller either but does have self calibration. This means that the valve will open to a known position depending on applied control signal voltage. It does its own periodic recalibration and is consistent.
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Nothing on any Wolsey sites either. I think the Climate Center will be the one.

I don't need feedback from the valve actuator. Just a simple 230v modulating actuator. It is for a weather compensated rad circuit. The compensator can switch the boiler burner (with in-built anti-cycle control) or pulse a modulating valve one way or the other + or -. No feedback from valve is needed as the valve position will be wherever it is positioned to maintain setpoint.
The rad circuit is taken off a thermal store. A Smart pump on the flow and TRVs all around.
Option 1. a 3-way domestic diverter valve - on/off not modulating. Drayton make one with an end switch for around 35-40. 3-way valve on the return. The compensator sense the return pipe as more stable temps on the return. If compensator says the return should say, be 35C, and it is above setpoint the 3-way valve is energised (by the compensator burner mode as it anti-cycle) and the heating circuit pumps on itself until cooler and below setpoint of 35C then the valve opens up again taking heat from a thermal store and allowing cooler water into the bottom of the store. Either full on or full off. Cheap and will work well enough. Maybe excessive wear on a domestic 3-way valve motor, but should be OK. 35C water is placed at the bottom of the thermal store to enhance condensing operation when the boiler fires up to reheat the store. Most of the time the water will be below 30C and the lower store temperature even cooler when DHW is draw off via a plate heat exchanger returning very cool water (15 to 25C) back to the lower part of the store. 70 to 80% of the latent heat is recovered when the boiler return temp is 30C, 50% at 35C.
Option 2. A 3-way modulating valve, then ensures the return temperature from the rads is accurate to what the compensator dictates by modulating the valve. This ensures most of the time a trickle of cool water into the bottom of the thermal store, maintaining thermal layering.
Condensing boiler efficiency is greatly raised and comfort conditions enhanced by a feed-forward control weather compensator. TRVs trim off locally.
If the Sauter 3-way valve and actuator are silly prices, I may go with the 3-way domestic diverter valve for ~40.
Domestic 3-way mid-position valves stall the motor when in mid-position. I could look at one of these to stall the motor at any position its travel. I haven't looked seriously at this yet.
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Spartan or Sontay; neither of them do Sauter but I don'y know why you'd want Sauter specifically. Sontay do 3-port rotary shoe Siebe valves, but they've pasted their name over Siebe's on the on-line data sheets. Siebe valves are good.
3-point floating control is the way many commercial mixing valves work. The option is to have the control electronics in the controller and have a cheaper valve actuator or have a 0-10V output from the controller and an expensive actuator with the control electronics inside it.
Forget 3-port mid-position valves; Sunvic do Mo-Mo valves that can be adapted for modulating mixing use; they used to do some relay device to adapt the standard valve. They've been having reliability issues with their relays though, allegedly.
Option 1 is bolleaux. If you want on-off, too hot/too cold control of the heating why not just do it with a thermostat. Diverter valve = 1 inlet, 2 outlets; I think you'd have to set that up as an injection valve, but I'm sure you know what you're doing. ;-) Option 2; sensible, conventional 3-port mixing. I have one as you describe with a Siebe mixing valve; very good, if I do say so myself. Option 3; variable speed injection mixing pump. No valve gland to wear out. Very reliable, if you know how to do it properly. There's a good article on the web, but ISTR you derided the author's technical competence the last time I mentioned him, so I won't offend you by giving the link here. Option 4 as 2 but injection mixing valve. The way I'd go if I ever do another one.

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wrote:
Spartan or Sontay; neither of them do Sauter but I don'y know why you'd want Sauter specifically. Sontay do 3-port rotary shoe Siebe valves, but they've pasted their name over Siebe's on the on-line data sheets. Siebe valves are good. <<<
Sauter are very good quality. I have used their kit in the past. I am using Sauter as a starting point and they appear to be going domestic with TRV tops.

3-point floating control is the way many commercial mixing valves work. The option is to have the control electronics in the controller and have a cheaper valve actuator or have a 0-10V output from the controller and an expensive actuator with the control electronics inside it. <<<<
Yep

Forget 3-port mid-position valves; Sunvic do Mo-Mo valves that can be adapted for modulating mixing use; they used to do some relay device to adapt the standard valve. They've been having reliability issues with their relays though, allegedly. <<<<
I looked at Mo Mo valves, and I like them, but offer no more than cheaper spring return valve for what I want to do. I didn't know they had an adapter to convert them to a modulating valve. Not on their site, or did I miss it? Mo Mo's are cheap on Ebay.
<<<<< Option 1 is bolleaux. <<<<
It isn't. Crude, simple, cheap, domestic kit but workable.

If you want on-off, too hot/too cold control of the heating why not just do it with a thermostat. Diverter valve = 1 inlet, 2 outlets; I think you'd have to set that up as an injection valve, but I'm sure you know what you're doing. ;-) <<<<
I know exactly what I am doing, and it is being used a crude injection valve. I am using a weather compensator. A stat is little more than useless.
The compensator would be set to operate on the spring return 3-way diverter as if it was a burner - built-in boiler anti-cycling woukld prevent valve hunting. The return temperature is far more stable than the flow too adding to stability. TRVs and a Smart pump would reduce excessive flow too. It will work, but may need a gate valve to balance up.
<<<<< Option 2; sensible, conventional 3-port mixing. I have one as you describe with a Siebe mixing valve; very good, if I do say so myself. <<<<
That is probably what I will go for, however I like to keep product domestic if I can as it can confuse dumb plumbers.
<<<<< Option 3; variable speed injection mixing pump. No valve gland to wear out. Very reliable, if you know how to do it properly. There's a good article on the web, but ISTR you derided the author's technical competence the last time I mentioned him, so I won't offend you by giving the link here. <<<<<
Not John Siegenthaler is it? He is bright enough.
I could have a full CH loop an have the compensator switch in a fixed speed injection pump pumping into the loop when heat is needed, rather than a 3-way diverter valve. The pump uses more power and is bulkier, although you are right in that it may be more reliable in the long run. Variable speed injection pumps need a controller, more expense when a simple modulating valve operated by a weather compensator, and one Smart pump can do the job.

Option 4 as 2 but injection mixing valve. The way I'd go if I ever do another one. <<<<<
It offers no more than Option 2. The idea is to get superior comfort conditions via the weather compensator and the lowest return temperature from the CH, injected back into the bottom on the thermal store to enhance condensing. Option one will not create such a stable return temperature but good enough. Option 2 will create a highly stable return temperature.
Another way is to use a 4 room temperature sensors around the house averaged and the controller modulating the 3-valve to suit. This may result in very low temperatures being injected back into the bottom of the store. It is idiot proof in that all you do is set the setpoint to say 21C (no slope to set) and the TVRs trim off in the rooms. But more expensive and unwanted sensors on walls.

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wrote:
Spartan or Sontay; neither of them do Sauter but I don'y know why you'd want Sauter specifically. Sontay do 3-port rotary shoe Siebe valves, but they've pasted their name over Siebe's on the on-line data sheets. Siebe valves are good. <<<<
I looked at the Sontay catalogue and lo-and-behold, some of their valves are clearly Sauter with their name on. The actuator is 27 and 3-way valve body 25. 22mm compression kit is extra, plus VAT. So it looks like it is well affordable and competitive.
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There you go, Drivel, you've learnt something from me. Strange that they do that, I can't see an advantage. I still go for the Siebe.

another one.

No, lad. All the secondary flow passes through a conventional 3-port mixing valve.
An injection mixing valve (or pump) only handles the primary flow going into the secondary variable-temperature circuit. If there's a big difference between Pri & Sec temperatures, the injection mixing valve will be smaller and cheaper.
The disadvantage is the mixed proportions will remain constant with a 3-port mixing valve, but with injection mixing, by injection valve or pump, the proportions and flow temperatures changes with the secondary flow rate, i.e., TRVs modulating.
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wrote in message> I looked at the Sontay catalogue and

There you go, Drivel, you've learnt something from me. Strange that they do that, I can't see an advantage. I still go for the Siebe. <<<<
They are smaller, compression ends, cheaper and still do the same job.

No, lad. All the secondary flow passes through a conventional 3-port mixing valve. <<<
That is the idea, as mixing on the CH return will give cooler water returning to the thermal store.

An injection mixing valve (or pump) only handles the primary flow going into the secondary variable-temperature circuit. If there's a big difference between Pri & Sec temperatures, the injection mixing valve will be smaller and cheaper. <<<<
Injection mixing will not guarantee cooler return temps back to the store, more than a simple 3-way mixing valve on the variable temp loop - and only one Smart pump is needed. An injection pump is cheap and will work, and can be switched by the weather compensator. In this case, a Gledhill Boilermate, the compensator can switch the pump via the pcb using a volt free contact in the compensator. The pcb gives anti-cycle control. When the store is below 60C the CH pump (could now be the injection pump supplied with the Gledhill) is switched out to give DHW priority and no cool water through the rads. Put it this way, a variable temp loop with a Smart pump, TRVs all around can run though a plate heat exchanger - a full loop. The Gledhill pump can be the other side of the plate in a very short primary injection loop. The variable temp loop is isolated. This means no sludge can enter the thermal store. Just the cost of a plate heat X which is around 80-90.
In a commercial system fitting a smaller injection pump or valve makes economic sense. In a small domestic system, there is no price advantage.
<<<<<< The disadvantage is the mixed proportions will remain constant with a 3-port mixing valve, but with injection mixing, by injection valve or pump, the proportions and flow temperatures changes with the secondary flow rate, i.e., TRVs modulating. <<<<<
Mixed proportions are the same - the same goes into the store than what comes out. That rate can vary as a Smart modulating pump and TVRs raise and lower the rate into the store.
On the primary loop a Smart pump can be fitted with a 2-port modulating injection valve, modulated by the weather compensator, sensing the return of the variable temp loop.
In a variable temp loop the idea is to keep it self contained in flow and temp and control is easy within that loop - as well as design. So, having heat injection into the loop that does not influence the characteristics of the loop makes sense. In a small domestic system this does not apply.
My aim is get a low temp back to the store and maintain enough heat in the loop to heat the house according to the outside temperature.
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Wow! John Siegenthaler and the Yanks have just discovered thermal storage. A newer approach they say.
"Today, the North American hydronics industry is "rediscovering" the benefits of hydraulic separation combined with traditional header-type piping applied to multiload/multitemperature systems. (that means a thermal store) We're also learning this uses less componentry and lower pumping wattage relative to primary/secondary piping. As hardware and electricity prices continue to rise, it's likely these newer approaches will soon become the standard."
http://www.pmengineer.com/SHT/Home/Images/PME_0907_Feat2Fig10Lg.jpg
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another one.

No, lad. All the secondary flow passes through a conventional 3-port mixing valve. <<<<
BTW, using a thermal store, the store replaces the primary loop and CH loop is the variable secondary loop. Think of a thermal store as a very thick, far superior, vertical header - the primary. A 3-port mixing valve acts just as one would on a commercial primary loop/secondary loop setup.
Understand why the primary loop is there. A thermal store replaces it. A direct thermal store on a domestic system gives all the advantages of a commercial system which domestic system do not have to their detriment. One reason why primary loops came about was to ensure constant flow through small tubed, fully pumped, high efficient boilers - the old boilers didn't even need pumps running. Only direct thermal stores ensure this on domestic systems. A kludge on domestic is a pressure differential valve to ensure minimal flow through the boiler, which invariably will not be set properly hindering the boilers longevity and reducing efficiency on condensing boilers giving a direct return from flow to return raising the return temperatures to inefficient levels. When the strings in these valves weaken with time the condensing efficiency of the system lessens as the return is short cutted from the flow more often.
Using a 3-port mixing valve on the secondary loop return (CH loop on domestic) to a thermal store will ensure very low return temperatures to the bottom of the store too.
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Nothing on any Wolsey sites either. I think the Climate Center will be the one.

I don't need feedback from the valve actuator. Just a simple 230v modulating actuator. It is for a weather compensated rad circuit. The compensator can switch the boiler burner (with in-built anti-cycle control) or pulse a modulating valve one way or the other + or -. No feedback from valve is needed as the valve position will be wherever it is positioned to maintain setpoint.
The rad circuit is taken off a thermal store directly. Condensing boiler heats the store directly. A Smart pump on the flow and TRVs all around.
Option 1. a 3-way domestic diverter valve - on/off not modulating. Drayton make one with an end switch for around 35-40. 3-way valve on the return. The compensator sense the return pipe as more stable temps on the return. If compensator says the return should say, be 35C, and it is above setpoint the 3-way valve is energised (by the compensator burner mode as it anti-cycle) and the heating circuit pumps on itself until cooler and below setpoint of 35C then the valve opens up again taking heat from a thermal store and allowing cooler water into the bottom of the store. Either full on or full off. Cheap and will work well enough. Maybe excessive wear on a domestic 3-way valve motor, but should be OK. 35C water is placed at the bottom of the thermal store to enhance condensing operation when the boiler fires up to reheat the store. Most of the time the water will be below 30C and the lower store temperature even cooler when DHW is draw off via a plate heat exchanger returning very cool water (15 to 25C) back to the lower part of the store. 70 to 80% of the latent heat is recovered when the boiler return temp is 30C, 50% at 35C.
Option 2. A 3-way modulating valve, then ensures the return temperature from the rads is accurate to what the compensator dictates by modulating the valve. This ensures most of the time a trickle of cool water into the bottom of the thermal store, maintaining thermal layering.
Condensing boiler efficiency is greatly raised and comfort conditions enhanced by a feed-forward control weather compensator. TRVs trim off locally.
If the Sauter 3-way valve and actuator are silly prices, I may go with the 3-way domestic diverter valve for ~40.
Domestic 3-way mid-position valves stall the motor when in mid-position. I could look at one of these to stall the motor at any position its travel. I haven't looked seriously at this yet.
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Could be - seems to be the closest.

One-off is likely to be more than that but it's worth asking.

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