Ring circuit form a single cable?

[Sparks]

Really, wow! Any other random fact you want to post, just go right ahed!

[Andy Hall]

Exactly. I've noticed that there does seem to be a north/south of Europe correlation to this. Generally, it also seems that the quality of German, Swedish,.... wiring accessories are pretty good anyway. For example, quite a lot of the IEC 60309 industrial connectors sold here originate from these two countries, and all that I've bought are pretty well made.

As far as Schuko connectors go, if you go into a DIY store in these countries, you can find well made wiring accessories and you can find crap, the same as here.

If you compare these with the rubbish that is sold in the US for their radial wiring systems, anything is good. Even the good US stuff is appalling by even the cheapest UK standards.

AIUI, the UK system of ring circuits was originally done to reduce the amount of copper used when that became expensive. It doesn't strike me that a properly designed and implemented radial wiring system should be any less safe. For that matter, you can implement them now in the UK if you like - the standards allow for it.

However, I suppose that any change would have to be implemented as mandatory in new construction and optional in existing. In mixed environments there would be potential confusion between a socket connected as a spur and one connected on a radial circuit.

This makes me think of driving in Amsterdam - not for the faint hearted.... On one side there are trams going at 60kph plus down narrow streets and bearing down on you, and on the other side there are bicycles, hundreds of them, with right of way in many cases. If they are going straight at an intersection and you want to turn right, they have right of way. Then there are the junkies who wander into the road.... Nightmare of a place - and they swallow herrings whole and wash it down with a kind of paint stripper called Jenever. I think that that comes from the same place that makes GamelDansk, although the latter smells more like furniture polish

[Sparks]

On that note, for a radial, you have a 20A MCB on 2.5mm and 30A MCB on 4mm. Can you use, say, 45A on 6mm? to save having to do two runs if you were likley to have more than normal loads in your kitchen for example? (Say you had a 3000w kettle, 3000w microwave/oven and somthing else, likely to be in use all at the same time (Maybe running a catering business from home?)

Glad I just drove past it when I was going to Den Helder a few years ago then!

Sparks...

[Doctor Evil]

Yes, wow! You are easily impressed.

Not random my dear friend. It means you don't have to install a ring. If you are not taking the full ring back to the mcb then why bother? Go radial.

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[Doctor Evil]

The standard never precluded radial circuits.

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[Sparks]

So they do allow for it then?

[:::Jerry::::]

It *could* happen, although it probably won't (and if it did it wouldn't be a phased roll out), there have been countries that *have* changed over. What would have to happen is that all but essential vehicles, emergency, busses and probably taxies, would be banned from all roads whilst the final change over was engineered (such as re working of fixed lane filters etc.). It would probably mean that the nation would officially have 7 days or so holiday over, say, Christmas...

It would cost one hell of a lot of money for little advantage, but it would probably get many of the older or less capable motorist off the road, roll on the days or cheap / free public transport and the conversion to driving on the right !.... :~)

[:::Jerry::::]

[ someone said ]

accidents/fires

What do you mean, there is nothing wrong with Spanish wiring, considering that the electricity is off more than it's on in many locations were is the danger ?!...

[Christian McArdle]

However, it is much easier to implement high integrity earthing (which is a considerable safety benefit) using ring circuits. Even when wired without high integrity components, the earthing is still considerably more secure with a ring.

Christian.

[Owain]

:::Jerry:::: wrote: [driving on the left > right]

Known as the Part P approach to regulatory impact assessment.

What made you think that was included??

"If it saves just one grandma"

Owain

[Miketew]

-- Miketew

[Stefek Zaba]

No, you wouldn't do it that way; what we think of as 'normal' 13A sockets are designed to be wired in 2.5mmsq or 4mmsq just-about (getting

3 4mmsq cores into most, as you'd do to take a spur isn't possible), and there's a design assumption that they won't be stuck onto circuits with a protective device rating above 32A.

Instead, you'd run multiple ring or radial circuits for the appliances; in rarer circumstances you might run a submain cable to a CU / distribution board mounted closer to the final loads, where you split the feed down into conventional final circuits.

[Rich Williams]

[Frank Erskine]

Seven days? To change slip roads and buildings nearby? Seven years wouldn't be anywhere near enough :-)

[Owain]

No.

The 'standard circuit' 30/32A ring final circuit supplying BS1363 13A socket outlets is a 2.5mm *minimum* cable, with a minimum current carrying capacity of 20A at any point. You cannot assume that the (2.5mm) cable can carry 26.5A because that is explicitly outside the parameters for the standard circuit (in some circumstances 2.5mm will struggle to make 20A if multiple derating has to be applied), and for a domestic dwelling would be so non-standard that anyone modifying the installation could not be expected to know or anticipate that you had used a non-standard circuit.

The max demand on a ring is not 2x20A = 40A because the ring cannot be assumed to be perfectly balanced. The standard circuit is designed for

*general purpose* socket outlet use, with varying loads being connected at various points.

Circuits are designed according to known factors including derating factors and do not need a 'safety margin'

Yes well we try not to do things like that here.

There is no way that socket circuits with unfused plugs could go to 40A. Although all new appliances should be safely fused at 16A (and in practice can probably go to 20A) there are many legacy appliances which still should be fused at 3A or 5A. The European tendency is to go for more, lower rated circuits, so they will not advocate 40A rings.

Adopting a Euro plug will be strongly resisted both by the major housebuilders -- who build something like 90% of all homes in this country -- and the major electrical retailers, who know that the prospect of having to change plugs (whether on existing appliances for new sockets, or new appliances for existing sockets) will put off potential buyers. And it is well established that badly wired plugs are a major cause of electrical unsafety, so encouraging people to wire their own plugs is a Bad Thing.

Owain

[Mike]

No. There are more breakers each of lower ratings. Rings are usually in a single room only, often with the breaker in that room as well. In Germany many circuits have no diversity allowance at all.

It's the IEE who are the real objectors here.

Probably not. In fact many are quite supportive as they won't need UK only stock. They will also have the opportunity to sell convertor adaptors by the truckload in the intervening years before all houses get converted (usually at sale).