Replacing a boiler

[Andy Hall]

Customers should feel content as well.

Looking at Discounted Heating's prices, the Ecomax models are compressed to a £100 range from smallest to largest, which I suppose is not that surprising. 828 is £1090 inc.

Isar is about £750 inc for a 29kW job

After my last Glow Worm, I wouldn't buy another of their products. Unless they have substantially improved, it was very cheap sheet metal bashing with sharp edges and all that went with it. On the occasions when I cleaned it, I would inevitably cut myself on some bit of metal or other. The 38cxi is £910 inc.; the 30cxi is £700 inc.

I suspect that the price premium for the Vaillant is worth it.

However, once the game changes, and volumes increase on condensing products, the prices will almost certainly drop. In reality there is not a huge manufactuing cost difference compared with conventional boilers. The marketing game will change as well and manufacturers will have to sell on controls and build quality because the efficiency will be very close between products.

.andy

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[David Hearn]

What about the Vaillant THERMOcompact? Am I right in saying that this is their non-combi boiler? Seems its priced between £460 inc VAT (but excluding flue and timer) for 615E and £721 for 628E. Am I right in saying that Vaillant is a good make then?

What would I expect for a fitter to supply and fit a boiler I could buy for £720 myself? Okay, they get to pocket the discount or whatever, but what should I be expecting to get it supplied and fitted? £1k total, £1.5k? Realistically, there shouldn't be much work to replacing a boiler should there? From what I read about the Vaillant, it said "Installing a THERMOcompact means a real saving all round. Typically, the additional components required to fit a conventional boiler can add over £50, with extra installation time of around 1.5 hours." AFAIK, its just disconnect the old boiler, put up new boiler. Wire in, plumb in and test. Of course, that's a very simple look at it, but there shouldn't be any/much more plumbing necessary. If there was, (like removing header tank or something) then I could do that before hand.

Thanks for all the help - its been really helpful.

D

[Ed Sirett]

I think you mean the Turbomax+ range - this is the stock in trade for me [1] These boilers are some of the best of the non-condensing units available but these will not comply with the eventual requirements which effectively means that only the condensing units will be permitted. [2]

The plumbing aspect is actualy a very small part of installing a new boiler. As often as not the combi is replacing a conventional system there are cylinders to remove and new connections to make. (Ideally you want to change the gravity CW to mains to balance any mixer taps and often as not you'll need to change the WC cistern valve - also you might have a leak on the old plumbing when subject to mains).

7 A considerable amount of work can be involved in making good the old balanced flue hole ( OK less up-market installers will leave the metal work in place and just bung some foam in it).

A considerable job is the flushing out of the old system especially if it died due to corrosion. The there is the upgrading of the gas main to support 26kW input or more. The flushing again with chemicals and adding inhibitor.

Don't forget the filling in of the Benchmark log book - if that's done properly with measurement of temperatures, flow rates and gas rates it takes a fair while.

Then there is the likely hood that the old system had problems: Some places too hot, others too cold, other rooms needing TRVs to comply with building regs. Needless to say the new system will need to be balanced (the old one may have been really unbalanced), that takes time even with a IR thermometer.

I charge around about 1000 labour to fit a new boiler give or take. A good 4 days work if done properly. Combi to combi can still take

2.5 days. [1] Well nearly - I'm tempted to keep a 824e in my store all the while just so I can respond more quickly to emergencies. [2] I know there are ways to be able to fit a low efficiency boiler but I expect they are too difficult to calculate easily whilst estimating a quote.

[IMM]

3) New technology. Any new technology tends to be less reliable than conventional tried-and-tested equipment. I doubt if condensing boilers will prove to be any different. Finding a heating engineer to repair one may also prove more difficult as they are not widely understood by all heating engineers yet.

[IMM]

I think you mean the Potterton, I think Excel? Useless. the Barcelona was made by Baxi and is now the Baxi something else. It wasn't bad at all.

I have to agree. Yet mine works well, gives no trouble and condensate does not lodge on the burner corroding it.

[IMM]

Many of the Glow Worms have stainless steel heat exchangers.

[Andy Hall]

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin exhausts and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy one.....

.andy

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[IMM]

They are better made than yesteryear and carry a 2 yr guarantee last time I looked

[Andy Hall]

Was this the 16 valve version? 4 in the engine, 12 in the radio?

... put up the radio antenna and it becomes a dodgem :-)

.andy

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[John Stumbles]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROFL!

-- John Stumbles

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[BigWallop]

ROFLMAO !!!

[IMM]

Glow Worm are part of the Vaillant Hepworth group. Vaillant and Glow Worm are the same company. The condensing Glow Worms are made in Holland and have spiral tube stainless steel heat exchangers - similar to the ECO-Hometec (MAN). The heat exchangers have been used in some Dutch, and I think Vaillant models, the last I heard/read. They are very good value for money and are up there in the Prem League.

Don't judge them on what they made 15-20-25 years ago.

[Andy Hall]

OK, so Vaillant bought a brand.....

.andy

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[IMM]

A none statement.

[Andy Hall]

Not really. My point was that from my experience, Glow Worm had or has been producing junk products, but somehow has established a brand name.

It is quite common for a manufacturer from another geography who does not have much of a recognised name in a territory in which they would like to establish one, to buy up a company with a name and little else, and to inject it with decent technology and manufacturing and of course, money.

In a market where there is much conservatism such as the UK plumbing and heating industry, this is a smart move.

My point was simply that in my view, and from my personal experience, Glow Worm does not give me a positive brand message. They may now have Vaillant technology etc. but who knows how that is implemented? Did they fire the management and entire workforce and start again? doubtful? So why would I want to risk that when I can buy known good products with a consistent track record?

.andy

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[IMM]

One or two junk products you mean. Those you have had experience off.

Ah, in "your" view.

To milions of others it does.

To Vaillant quality stadards?

Doesn't matter. They have to tow the Vaillant line.

Glow Worm made excellent quality products that were value for money at the time. E.g., the first wall mounted UK made boiler. They did make the odd lemon, as do them all.

The current crop of Glow Worm condensing boilers are top rate. With most, if not all, made in Holland. The heat exchangers are all made in Holland anyhow, and the other components are mainly bought in, like gas valve, PCB board, sensors etc. The low level stuff is rebadged Saunier Duval; best buy the equiv Saunier as it is cheaper. So they have a large leap in quality from bottom to top. You never looked did you. You never did your research.

[Andy Hall]

Products with poor manufacturing, thin metal for casing, internal components and sharp edges and poor internal fixings are poor and cheap engineering down to a price. Since they will have made probably tens of thousands or more of some of these conventional wall-mount boilers then they will all be the same. I am sure that they didn't single me out for special attention.

That's what I said, and from the outset.

Undoubtedly and that is why the brand was saleable, just like Potterton.

Who knows?

Are you sure about that?

I had two different products of their manufacture installed in new houses by a subcontractor of the builder.. Both were unreliable junk and had a lifetime cost far in excess of what I would consider reasonable.

I always do my research and as you well know, I don't buy on price.

.andy

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[IMM]

You only went for stainless steel heat exchangers....and Glow Worm have these. Download their instalation & service manual.

[Andy Hall]

That wasn't the point of the original comments.....

.andy

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