RCDs in series

16A RCBO protection

Should not be left to the home owner.

You don't know do you?

Read back at everything I wrote - 14 times.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel
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I have already given you concrete technical reasons why shock and fire risks are reduced for a number of common circuit faults; plus you have had presented to you details of why our circuit designs result in fewer trip and fall injuries. Hence you will need to counter with significantly more effort and reasoning in your reply than that.

Explain why you think this is safer?

All the fuses in my house are correctly sized for the appliance. Are things different in yours?

Furthermore the fuse will be installed by the manufacturer, and is highly unlikely to ever be replaced. Therefore your assertion that "few are" the correct rating is obviously grossly inaccurate.

Appliances frequently have their own fusing anyway - in addition to that provided in the plug. The fuse in the plug providing primary protection to the appliance flex. Another reason for the kludgy engineering that requires appliance flexes in euro land to be sized to take full circuit current rather than appliance current.

Reply to
John Rumm

Do you think he might have got a new job? (i.e. at Newey and Eyre instead of Plumb Center)

Reply to
Andy Hall

I stand corrected, there is no doubt, as the sentence above shows, that you are to prose what William Topaz McGonagall was to poetry. "So giftedly bad he backed unwittingly into genius".

"is" means it _is_ disputed, not that it may be.

Reply to
Peter Parry

Yes it is as it is both more expensive to fit radials initially and much more difficult and expensive to add them later. A Dutch friend of mine has recently returned to a brand new house in Holland after several years in the UK. In the UK their office room had 15 double sockets which took a day to retrofit. Their new house in Holland includes an "office" room which has 5 single sockets. To fit 30 outlets in the new room would cost him well over £3,000 including the extensive re plastering and redecoration required throughout the house after fitting the new cables.

Yes it is, it is more than high enough to allow a 2A flex to burn for some time and start a fire. How many sockets you have is inconsequential. 16A on a single socket won't trip a residual current device or a circuit breaker but will start a fire in a faulty lead. The consequence is that you have an inherently unsafe installation.

Fuses, which are 13A maximum, don't fail short circuit - only open circuit. In safety terms usually the simpler things are the safer and more reliable they are.

One of the problems CENELEC faced when told by their EU paymasters to introduce a new EU plug and socket system (amazingly without anyone having bothered with any estimation of cost of implementation) was that for political reasons it had to be more or less the same as the German system and for technical reasons safer than all other systems. During 5 years of large lunches the best they could come up with was an astonishingly complex proposal with mini distribution boards in every room which by their own admission was no safer than the UK system and in some respects less safe. The IEC continue to peddle IEC

60906-1 which manages to be as unsafe as the dreadful American system.

Only if your fellow bodgers have been at them with a drill. Shutters are required to be operated by the earth pin or by pressure of both shaped pins on both L and N at the same time (MK have used this system). There is also a marked difference between a system which has a few unshielded sockets caused by damage and one which by design has none whatsoever.

There is no standard for wiring of Shuko sockets, there would be no point as they are not polarised. There is supposedly one for CEE

7/7.

In its design, in the proper certification of devices to use with it and with its proven inherently lower risk of causing fires.

No it isn't. Tripping of both sides occurs in current imbalance on both types of circuit. In overload, tripping on both sides has no safety advantage.

My Dutch friends brand new just finished house doesn't.

This is where you display your profound ignorance. A 16A circuit will dissipate about 3.7kW which is more than enough to turn an extension or appliance lead into a red hot fire source.

Most fires are caused by overloads which do not trip high current protective devices.

Indeed, and each appliance plugged in has a low value fuse. Contrary to your ignorant assertion that most fuses are 13A most low current devices have moulded on plugs and the same (correct) fuse they were originally supplied with as they rarely fail.

On a Shuko system there is no protection at all other than the main

16A fuse or circuit breaker.

As fuses are cheaper and inherently more reliable than RCBO's what is wrong with that?

For some reason you never seem to put your money where your mouth is. Do you use _any_ of the aberrant ideas you suggest to others yourself?

Reply to
Peter Parry

Thank you.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

It isn't. You just fit more.

Rings are not illegal in Holland.

Fit a 16A flex instead of bell wire.

I have known a few not to blow.

It isn't.

Proven? Only in your mind.

It is.

Try Germany.

When having RCBOs tripping on L & N, there is s high safety factor.

Do they? Sure they do!

When they do fail a 13A is invariably fitted.

Or RCBO which is far safer.

They are? New to me.

My house does not require a rewire. I may consider using RCBOs on some circuits.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

That of course is a solution sometimes employed - although a clock radio wired with a 16A cable is a bit silly.

That's because their fault current wasn't exceeded. Exactly the same happens with circuit breakers. It's not a fault but a design characteristic.

You don't understand how RCBO's work do you?

If you had said Germany I would have, your assertion that most new continental systems use RCBO's is false.

There is no safety factor. With a current path only from line to neutral an RCBO is no difference from an RCD or fuse and will not trip until the full current is exceeded. If this current exceeds the capacity of the appliance lead fires can result.

Sometimes, but such fuses rarely fail unless the appliance becomes unserviceable. Even if your assertion was correct a proportion of appliances having such protection is a great deal better than none at all doing so.

How do you reach the conclusion that that is safer?

Quite a lot is new to you. It remains a fact that a fuse is inherently more reliable than a circuit breaker.

Reply to
Peter Parry

Peter, that is like saying that because dribble is simple, he will be safer than any other poster on this n.g.

Regards

Dave

Reply to
Dave

Oh look! Pat-n-Dave again. The perfect couple.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

A good point although I doubt if simple is the right description. It takes a particularly convoluted and idiosyncratic turn of mind to come up with such consistent and complex absurdity as he manages.

He is undoubtedly the all time winner of the new William Topaz McGonagall prize for clarity of explanation; not many people have the faintest idea what he is on about. This is especially true of his ante-hostelry late night ramblings, when he is perhaps a tad tired and emotional, such as

"My English is much superior.,,and this counters you wonderness of the plug."

I suspect he poses more of a threat to the English language and readers blood pressure than he does to actual DIY or other activities.

Reply to
Peter Parry

It appears the rest of the world is simple except you and the silly UK de-facto rings regs. Apparently the rest of the world is out of step. Amazing!!!

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Not unless they are actively seeking legal action!

Reply to
John Rumm

You know, the more you say, the more you demonstrate the astonishing shallowness of your understanding.

Powerfully dumb

I expect it would be.

Good for you, nothing wrong with that. Just don't try any of the other tosh you are spouting.

Reply to
John Rumm

This man is from Essex, you know.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

You really don't know, do you?

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Yes, I suppose it must seem like that.

Do you ever feel lonely?

Reply to
Andy Hall

He could become an 'advisor' to Brown...

Reply to
Frank Erskine

He will become an environmental consultant traveling the world (first class, at our expense) to visit endangered coral reefs and carbon offsetting trees. He will them come back as a member of the iron age restoration society and rail against cars (except when needed for official green business) and exhorting all to put a windmill on the roof.

Reply to
Peter Parry

As long as he advises him to take a hike I'd happily fund it.

Reply to
Andy Hall

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