The boiler stopped working. I've had a local heating engineer looking at it. He diagnosed a noisy pump and dodgy fire valve, both of which have been replaced. Now there is simply no oil being sucked from the tank. He checked the filters at the oil tank and while they are a bit dirty, they shouldn't stop oil getting through.(There was oil in both the filter housings.) He tested that the pump was working by feeding oil from a separate small cannister of heating oil. It works fine then. But as soon as the tube is connected back on to the feed pipe (to the tank) and the boiler started again, there is no fuel coming through. Zilch. The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level, observed through the filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.
I have now arranged for a different firm to come out, since I don't have confidence any longer in the original chap. Could the pipe be blocked? (I mean, from the tank to the boiler.) It's plastic-coated
10mm copper. I'm at my wit's end now, since it's already cost £200 for the pump and the fire valve. Any advice most welcome.
Can you think of any other reason why the pump (brand-new, nota bene) is not sucking oil from the tank, but sucks it fine out of a small can? The run from the tank to the boiler is approximately 15 metres. The last section is approximately two metres up the outside wall of the garage to where the boiler is mounted. That is, the pipe runs level with the ground for about 13 metres, passes under the patio, is then routed along the side of the garage wall, then there is a 90 deg turn as it runs up the wall for the last approx 2 metres. All 40 houses on this estate (built 2003-4) are the same in respect of the boiler installation. Several have had their pumps replaced already, apparently.
When these systems are installed, does the installer engineer have to, in some way, pre-fill the pipe, or maybe suck the oil through with a hand pump first prior to connecting the tube to the boiler pump? Okay, I'm now getting this other firm (one that has been installing Wallstar systems since 1999) out anyway, but now, as an erstwhile motor fitter many moons ago (now retired) I'm just curious.
Is the level in the tank above the level of the boiler.? Do you get free flow of air free oil from the supply pipe at the boiler and at the level of the connection to the boiler?
Is that 6" of oil really oil or is it oil over water and your getting water through the supply pipe?
It's a wallstar so I guess the tank is lower than the boiler (clue in the name) but he could perhaps disconnect the pipe from one end to check it's clear. Either disconnect at the lower end or disconnect at the higher and temporarily lower that end (carefully).
OP: Is there any chance that the pipe may have been crushed at any point in its run? Careless gardening or damage where it leaves the ground perhaps?
Also could the exit hole inside the tank be blocked with crud? (Remove filter, open valve, catch the oil and re-use. Pray you can close the valve again!)
Without a gravity feed I think the system would be a right pig to get primed, the pumps don't suck air very well at all. They'll cope with a small bubble in the oil but won't shift an air lock or lift the oil very far if having to suck air to do it.
Think I'd check that there is a free flow of oil at the connection to the pump. if there is reconnect and bleed the pump and try starting the boiler. If there isn't work backwards up the supply pipe at each joint where there is a constriction, (in and out of any valves, filters etc) in the supply pipe checking for free flowing oil. I'd not check any fullbore simple pipe joins to start with.
Actually they work very well. Mine is fitted at wall-unit height and will happily self prime. Having run out of oil in the past I can tell you that it only takes a couple of re-fires to self prime and clear out enough of the air bubbles to allow the boiler to stay lit.
You do not make it clear but from your description I am guessing that you have a one pipe oil system rather than the two pipe which is recommended by the majority of boiler manufacturers. I also query the need for two filters at the tank - normal arrangement is for a shut off valve followed by a sight tube level gauge and a filter (sometimes as an all in one unit). What do you actually have with yours? Priming of an oil pump is not difficult but repeated dry attempts can and do rapidly wreck even a new pump. You might do well to put a little light oil directly into the inlet port of the pump before repeating the attempts. What sort of noise was the pump making? starvation of supply gives a straining whine but other things such as stripped splines on a plastic drive link give a whirring sound. There should be nothing to stop you blowing air back through the oil pipe to the tank with only 6" submersion at the tank connection. This will prove the line is clear. Any air leak along the suction line to the pump will break the suction and it will not prime. If you have a flexible section at the pump ake very sure it is not perished under the braid. Normal practice is to renew the flexible pipe every two or three years unlee it is a stated "long life" version. Since you seem to have little confidence in your boiler man you might check he has not replaced a left hand rotation pup with a right hand model or vice versa. (clue an L or R in the pump model code). This is silly but all too easily done! If these pointers do not help come back for more
I did once have a problem with clogged Crossland paper filter! I now change them on a regular basis -:)
The pump should have instructions which tell you how much it can suck.
Pumps don't last for ever, and I have had to change them. Since fitting a new boiler in 2006 I now have two filters, one close to the tank and one close to the boiler.
Can you disconnect the pipe where it connects to the tank valve and then check that oil does come out of the tank when you open the valve? (Or do this closer to the boiler if there is a joint lower than the oil level in the tank.)
Right, this is what the second firm did which I called out this morning. (Straightaway, I got the feeling that the engineer was far more methodical than the other chap.) Anyway, the first thing he did was confirm there was oil in the tank. Next, he got his compressor out of the van, disconnected the fuel line at both ends, I held the tank end and pointed it into an old watering can and he blasted through the pipe. It wasn't blocked.
He then undid the bleed valve on the pump, connected his manometer, then started the boiler. the manometer barely any suction at all from the pump. He said it might have had just enough suction to draw oil from a small hand-held test cannister, but not enough 'suck' to draw oil all the way from the tank.
Then I left him for a while, since when I was working in the motor trade I hated it when the customer would stand over me. Some while later, I heard the boiler come on at last. He told me that the new pump that the other chap had fitted simply wasn't sucking anything. He had installed another new pump (same model, BFP11 L3) and it worked straightaway. Later, when we discussing why the other new pump had apparently failed (or was faulty from the factory), he asked whether the other chap had in fact installed it correctly, explaining to me that the pump comes with some doubris or other in the box that sometimes has to be fitted (inside the pump) and sometimes not, else it would lose its prime (as in: pump prime) pretty quickly. He further went on to say that the pump had to properly engage with the motor. This was all completely over my head, since I know sweet FA about CH boilers.
Anyway, sorted. It'll probably cost me another £200, but at least the CH is back working again. I'm going to try and return the first new pump via the other bloke and see if I can get some money back. Basically I blame myself for not going to the heating firm (which came out this morning) in the first place, because when I first went into their high street showroom to ask for advice (after the first chap had, basically, started to flounder), the MD and his fitter patiently listened to my story of woe and asked pertinent questions and gave an all-round impression that they knew the Wallstar boilers inside out.
So there ya go! A lesson to anybody not to try and save money by using a fly-by-night fitter, which is how I shall ever after view the chap who tried, but who, I believe, was soon out of his depth technically.
Please refer to my earlier post (a few minutes ago) in reply to Michael Chare). The Wallstar manual I have says the following:
"Fuel tank below the burner" [which it is, as you surmised] "The fuel pump can lift fuel to a height of 2.5 metres."
I checked and the up-section of pipe is well within that limit.
In my other post I explained how the second heating engineer who fixed it this morning replaced the new pump with a new pump he had on his van and the oil started flowing soon after he switched the boiler on. He said, maybe the other fitter had not installed the first new pump correctly. It is, of course, not the job of the second firm to try and diagnose what the other chap may or may not have done wrong, but to simply diagnose the fault as presented and to fix it, which he has now done.
The Wallstar manual states: "A two pipe system or a deaerator (Tiger loop, 3K or similar) is not required."
Picture the green plastic tank with the Atkinson outlet pipe which has the open/shut valve on its end. The fuel line to the boiler is connected to a boss on the side of the outlet pipe. Looking from above, imagine the letter 'L'. The upright bar is the Atkinson; the horizontal is the fuel line to the boiler:
tank | | | x -------y------------- oil feed to boiler V
V is the open/shut valve
x and y mark the spot of the two filters. Each of these is in the form of a bowl. The one on the oil feed pipe, filter y, simply unscrews (the bowl itself has a threaded stud protuding, like on some car engine oil filters). The other one, x, has a bolt going right through the bowl and into the Atkinson doubris.
Maybe this is what happened. Maybe the first fitter didn't know you could wreck a new pump in this way. He's hardly likely to own up, though...
Unfortunately, with my hearing, I am not the best person to ask. The first engineer, who had serviced the boiler back in November (and won't do so again!!), told me back then that the pump was noisy and could soon need replacing. Apparently these pumps do not last all that long. Several houses on the estate have had their pumps replaced (approx 6 - 7 years old) and they all have identical CH boilers to mine.
This is the kind that needs to be replaced every two years.
Well, this is what the people in the heating showroom also said (the firm that came out this morning to fix it), and I later put this to the first bloke, who said he already knew about left-hand and right-hand pumps, giving me to understand that he thought the suggestion that he might have got it wrong utterly risible (he is a bit of a confrontational type of person). I do not know. I am a CH novice. But the fact is, the NEW new pump worked straightaway.
Many thanks (to all) for their advice, but thankfully now the boiler has been fixed, albeit that I have learned the hard (=expensive) way not to go to any Tom, Dick or Harry with a set of spanners who claims to be a heating engineer.
On my previous boiler the pump was driven from the fan (and motor) by a rubber pipe with internal splines. If the pump was in the wrong position the splines in the pipe would not grip the plastic cup on the pump. (not a particularly obvious fault.)
The pumps I have had come with a small screw which is used to block a bypass hole for two pipe operation. Leaving that screw in place for one pipe operation might well damage the pump.
I hope that you get your money back from the first person.
This is what the second engineer (the one who fixed it) also queried. He also mentioned the internally-splined connector and whether it had properly engaged with the pump shaft.
Of that there is so far no sign. He claims the pump wasn't faulty and doesn't believe the second engineer fitted a new pump. Also, a check on the web reveals that this pump (BFP11 L3) is around £55 plus VAT, yet I was told £70 plus VAT (by the first engineer). The fire valve is also a lot cheaper on the web than what I was told: Around £28 as opposed to £50.
Anyone want to buy my "brand-new" pump??!! (Well, it was fitted in the boiler for about an hour.)
You seem to have found a competent service man now - long may you enjoy the use of his services!
In connection with the manual stating a one pipe system is ok, it is odd that nearly every other wall mounted boiler manufacturer advises two pipe, or using a tiger loop deaerator. (in this case the internal bypass plug should be fitted to the pump - see leaflet packaged with the pump for details) I have had to replace many pumps after only a few years when used on a one pipe fuel lift installation. The pump working life is cut by about half in my experience by this short-cut.
Maybe that explains the relatively short life of these pumps on this estate. I was told (by the first fitter) that several houses had already had their pumps replaced. However, as you know, I am used to frugal living (which is why I am especially pissed off right now) and therefore run my heating far less than your average person, so my boiler won't have had anything like as much wear as some. However, the second engineer really rates the Wallstar as a brand, saying they are excellent, so that is some good news at least.
One other point, that Michael Chare might also wish to ponder: During the first repair attempt (that didn't work out) the fitter told me that the transparent plastic hose between the fire valve and the pump should be a *braided* hose, and then proceeded to fit one.
However, later, once the *second* engineer had arrived (this is now two to three days later...) and was in the final stages of finishing up after successfully getting the system back working again, he told me a story about the boss of HRM Systems, one Hedley Mickleburgh, who successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting. So if this is true, the "braided hose" recommendation also seems to be wrong.
I have always used braided pipes. I have read on this ng that they can become porous (to air). The pipes that came with my latest boiler are braided, but with a rubber covering. (I think). The fire valve should be outside. I would expect to find a copper pipe coming from the fire valve connected to a flexible pipe at the boiler. I have always assumed that the purpose of the fire valve is to prevent oil from the tank feeding a fire in the house. I can not see how using a clear plastic pipe to connect to the boiler would help in that respect. In principle I would want to use as fire resistant a pipe as possible just in case the fire valve failed to work. In practice you can only use what is available to buy.
If the rubber pipe with internal splines was not mating properly with the pump then the end may become frayed and the the pipe may fail at a later date.
Well, according to the second fitter, the correct hose for the Wallstar 15/20 is the clear plastic tube because this is *designed* to melt quickly in the case of a fire and thus stop the flow of fuel to the pump.
However, it is INside (the boiler housing on the external garage wall).
The second fitter said that the fire valve is intended to stop fire spreading back to the oil tank.
See above.
Well, that doesn't exactly cheer me up any! ;) Let's hope the second fitter checked its condition.
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