Mains motors in the workshop

Hi All
Until last week I was using a little (probably 1/3hp) electric motor to power a combination diamond saw / grinder / polisher unit. I guess that the original motor was ex an old washing machine.
Anyway - last week, said motor gave a gasp and died. Now all it will do is buzz weakly - and won't turn - mains lights in the workshop dim while it's buzzing (not a good sign, I think).
So - bright idea time ! Saw something on the web about using a cheapie bench grinder as a motor - found one in Homebase, and lo & behold the pulley fitted in place of the grinding wheel. Result !
Sadly not - the new little motor is perfectly happy to spin its own grinding wheels - but refuses to start when faced with the effort of spinning the combination unit - it now sits and buzzes weakly..... darn !
The new thing's rated at 150Watts - which is probably a bit on the light side - but any idea why it'll happily spin up its own wheels but not my combo unit....?
Alternatively - what's the chance or fixing the old motor - no magic smoke escaped - so I'm hopeful.... <g>
Thanks Adrian Suffolk UK ======return email munged================take out the papers and the trash to reply
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,

Does the original motor have a starter capacitor? If so, there's a fair chance that that's failed, and gone something akin to short circuit. If you replace that, the motor will probably work.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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HI Roger
Thanks for the reply
On Sat, 13 May 2006 15:51:21 +0100, "Roger Mills"

I've uploaded some photos of the motor - they're at http://www.inspired-glass.co.uk/electric-motor.htm
The little cover over the electrical connections has a schematic which seems to show a capacitor - would this be the starter capacitor ?
If so - do you know where it is ? - do I have to undo the long bolts which appear to hold the two end castings together - and then does it all become clear ??? <g> (or do I end up with a bag of bits <g>)
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in message

Looking at the top picture, is that a shiny wire link between terminals z and a at the top? If so then its wired as the RHS of the 3rd picture. This is marked TS 43-58. I assume that this will be stamped on the motor nameplate. I suspect then that (assuming both above correct) that it will use a start winding with a centrifugal (spelling??) switch. I guess the contacts have gone and not powering up the start winding. Follow that bit of metal coming off the live terminal post, think you may find something there.
Hope I have helped a bit!
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HI Tim
On Sat, 13 May 2006 18:42:40 GMT, "Tim Morley" <tim.morley*REMOVE

Yes indeed - well spotted <g>

Last night in the dark I read it as TS4543 - but the nameplate's been bashed about a bit so I'll take a closer look today in daylight !

Right ! When the motor worked, there was a definite 'clunk' as it spun up to speed - that would have been the centrifugal switch, perhaps ??

Yes thanks ! Now I need to get 'inside' this motor to see what's going on..... The only obvious things I can see holding it all together are the four long bolts - unless there's something clever holding the covers on underneath the mounting feet - I'll have another look & report back...
Many thanks - I missed your post last night and it wasn't unti some kind soul pointed it out that I read it.....
Thanks Adrian
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,

I think the schematics on that cover plate show two alternative configurations - one with a strap between A and Z (which is what you've got) and one with a capacitor (which would be external if it existed). So it looks as if you haven't got one - so much for that idea!
Is there anything readable on the larger plate (curved round the main casing)?
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Roger
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Hi Roger
On Sat, 13 May 2006 20:13:56 +0100, "Roger Mills"

Oh - bother <g> I was looking forward to replacing a 1 capacitor and it all bursting into life again..... shucks !

Just been out to the workshop..
It reads Crompton Parkinson Insulation Class E BS170 A73 AC Motor Spares Cat A3 No TS4543H BHP 0.166 RPM 1425 Volts 220 / 240 Amps 1.6 PH 1 Hz 50 Rating Cont
Don't know if that helps ??
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,

It doesn't give *me* any clues as to its mode of operation, I'm afraid - but I don't claim to be the world's leading expert in these matters.
If you feel like doing a little experiment, you could remove the A-Z strap, and fit a strap between A and S instead - and see whether it works when you tell it to go backwards. It might just use a different set of internal windings in this mode, and they might be ok.
Could you still use it if it rotated the other way - maybe by fitting the belt in a figure of 8 or something if your machinery minds which way it turns?
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Roger
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Hi Roger
On Sat, 13 May 2006 20:55:44 +0100, "Roger Mills"

You & me both ! <g>

Now that's an idea.... good thinking.... I was (mis) reading the diagram on the cover plate as being (left side) rotation one way and (right side) rotation 'tother way - but, on re-reading it, it does advise swapping yellow & blue leads to rotate the other way.
Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow..... (if you hear a loud 'bang' then draw your own conclusions <g>

Oh yes - the motor is mounted on a wooden baseboard - so it can easily be rotated through 180-degrees and all will be fine (until the other winding blows !)..
I'll give it a try and report back - many thanks....
You'd think that there would be a fair few of these things kicking about - but a quick trawl through eBay shows very few of them. I did read that modern washing machine motors are not as 'usable' as thes old-fashioned ones, as they need their controller box to be useful.... progress, eh ??
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You might find that a cheap tumble dryer motor is more what you're looking for.

--
Clint Sharp

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Adrian Brentnall wrote:

If you need a new on, machinemart have a reasonable selection.
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Cheers,

John.

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Don't know if this will help or not. TS 43-58 is the "motor frame number". Just a spec that can be referenced for; bolt hole spacing, distance from shaft centerline to bottom of frame, housing length etc.
Rating Cont.. Is just the "duty cycle". It can be run continuosly at it's rated output without cooking itself.
If you multiply the Amps X Volts you'll get the Wattage. As you can see your new motor is only about one-half as strong as your old motor.
Old evaporative coolers (swamp coolers) are a good source for the type of motor your're describing, as are clothes dryers. I don't know if you guys use evap coolers over there, as I'm in the US.
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cbruce wrote:

thats a new one on me, how does that work?

not so

unfortunately no, theyre no use in our climate. Drier motors are also no use, for a different reason.
NT
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Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Some motors deliver little torque during starting, some produce lots. So not all motors are suited to all loads.
Total rank bodge time:
1. wrap string 10 times round the driveshaft, ensuring that each layer is firmly on top of previous layers so the string grips. Pull string medium-hard at same time as throwing the switch. Very crude but effective.
2. If a washing machine motor has a shorted winding, running it in series with another load will get it going. Now and then you'll find it wont self start unless turned, if it stopped on the dead spot. Unfortunately this bodge cant be used in a washing machine, as the motor must start many times per wash cycle without manual assistance.
NT
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Hi NT Thanks for the comments so far
On 13 May 2006 08:21:49 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

So it seems. I even thought I'd get smart (always a mistake!) Tried fitting the pulley to my older bench grinder - it's rated at 300W rather than the 150W that the new ones have.
Still no joy - it just won't start under load..

Didn't actually try with the string - but spinning the grinding wheels by hand didn't do it - it refused to pick up..

I don't really want to have to 'kick-start' this one either <g>
Some photos at http://www.inspired-glass.co.uk/electric-motor.htm if you have a moment... I'm wondering... looks as if it might have a starter capacitor - but I can't see it at the moment - guessing that it might be mounted beneath the paxolin panel with the mains connections on...
Guessing further - looks as if I need to undo the long bolts that hold the two end castings on to get inside - does that sound about right to you ??
Despite having played and worked around electric & electronics all my life I've never really got up close & personal with the innards of one of these before - and don't want to withdraw the two long bolts just for it all to go 'ping' and bits fly everywhere......
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Adrian Brentnall wrote:

that can be bodged around, but I dont have any decent solutions.

the string will give you at least 10x the speed, it may be worth a try.

I doubt it has one by the look of it. A cord grip would be wise.

Not really, that would separate bits you dont want to separate. Can you get the curved side cover off? If its a brushed motor that would get you access to brushes, and hopefully you could find some other brushes to replace them. But there's not much else you can do in there, assuming youre not looking to rewind the thing.

you would need to be able to put it together again
Its probably a wound stator wound rotor brushed universal motor, meaning it has no separate starting circuit and high start torque. If so, attention to brushes may fix it, and string starting wouldnt. But I cant be sure thats the type of beast it is, so the string is worth a go. Its odd the diagram shows a cap tho.
NT
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snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

Sounds flipping dangerous to me.

Bzzzt. It's very clearly a spilt-phase induction motor - the type with an auxiliary starer winding connected via a centrifugal switch (& no capacitor). Tim Morley probably hit the nail on the head a few articles ago, but no-one seems to be listening.
Adrian, I think you'll need to strip the motor down and inspect/clean the switch. Take the long through studs out, get the front end-plate off and withdraw the armature from the front, and the rest should be fairly obvious. Alternatively a local rewinds place (see YP) could probably repair it for a lot less than the cost of a new motor.
--
Andy

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wrote:

I'd start with the metal cap next to the terminals. Three screws, and much likely to be easy to put back together than taking the motor apart (though it may still come to that). That's about where I'd expect a centrifugal switch to be, too.
Thomas Prufer
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HI Thomas Thanks for the comments
On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:17:31 +0200, Thomas Prufer

I did quickly whip this cover off - all I could see was the end of a bearing and 3 or 4 felt pads delivering oil to it.
I'll take another look in a bit before I start the big dismantling effort ! Thanks Adrian ======return email munged================take out the papers and the trash to reply
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HI Andy
On Sat, 13 May 2006 23:50:47 +0100, Andy Wade

Just about do-able - but not really how I'd like it to work <g>

I'd missed Tim's post until you pointed it out - just read it - makes sense - thanks..

OK - I'll have a look. As I just replied to Tim, there was a definite 'clunk' as it started (when it worked) - so that bears out the centrifugal switch theory.
The motor was very second-hand from a friend - think it cost me a tenner - so if a cost-effective 'DIY' repair is possible then that'd be great.
I use this kit for slicing up & grinding / polishing my kiln-fused glass work - and I've got another 'fair' coming up next weekend - so if it's possible to get it flying again sooner that'd be great....
I'll take a look and report back - many thanks !
Adrian
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