Loo design

[Anna Kettle]

I am in search of a loo cistern ...

99% of loo pans are either close coupled or back to the wall but mine is the traditional shape

I dont want a traditional shaped cistern above it, or an Edwardian styled one. Ideally I'd like a modern looking ceramic push button cistern but they dont seem to exist for standard shaped loos

Which leaves me with two options. The simple one is to have a concealed cistern but before I go that route I wonder just what is special about a close coupled cistern? Could I use one with a non close coupled pan?

I went to have a look at some close coupled loos in a showroom today but they were all connected up so I couldnt get a good look so my questions are ...

- Is the pipe between the cistern and the loo the same diameter as it would be on a non-closecoupled loo?

- Does the cistern hang off the wall or does it sit on the pan?

- Where the cistern meets the pan, is the shape of the cistern going to look odd if there isnt a pan joined directly to it?

Thankyou Anna

-- Anna Kettle Lime plaster repair and conservation Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc Tel:    (+44)  01359 230642 Mob:   (+44)  07976 649862 Please look at my website for examples of my work at:

 

[Andy Burns]

What pipe? The ones I've seen just have a big rubber "donut" as a washer.

[<me9]

The syphon/drop valve is the same in both types of cistern, so the standard pipe would fit. Close coupled ones usually have water feed (and overflow if separate) into the bottom of the cistern instead of the side. Some may not have mounting holes in the back, and have holes in the bottom (instead of a seperate plate held on by the syphon nut) to fix to the pan.

[Kevin]

our close coupled cistern is flat across the bottom, the bracket that joins the two parts together is only held on by the syphon so it can be removed, so I guess you could a pipe to it but from memory its not glazed at this joint as its normally not seen

[Owain]

What you want is a "low level" cistern which connects with a flushpipe but is at low level - the ones with a chain above head height are "high level". Most contemporary ones are close-coupled as you have found. You may have more luck looking in commercial sanitaryware ranges for replacement cisterns. I had to go hunting through Armitage Shanks' prisons brochure ...

Wickes have a reasonably inoffensive-looking white ceramic low-level

and a 25-year guarantee. Not push-button though, unless you can fit a pneumatic push button through the handle hole.

Armitage Shanks S3900 Basic Cistern According to

options include S3902 Compact cistern with bottom supply and internal overflow S3904 Compact low level cistern and cover, 6 litre, for side supply and internal overflow, with screwdown cover S3905 Compact low level cistern and cover, 6 litre, for bottom supply and internal overflow, with screwdown cover do a couple of cheap and possibly too nasty for words ones; the first at least is plastic.

[Cicero]

========================================= Two points to consider; your pan (non close coupled) probably has the entry point (for flush water) at the back of the pan but the close coupled type usually has flush water entry on top and the joint between pan and cistern is sealed with a thick doughnut washer (about 3" diameter x 1" thick). The second point is that the cistern (close coupled) is supported *mainly* by the pan and the two screws (at the back) holding it to the wall are *mainly* to locate it correctly. I think that the cistern would break under its own weight if you tried to support it only by the two screws.

I believe that you could overcome both of the above potential problems. The first by using an adapter washer or bung (about 2" diameter)of some kind at the bottom of the cistern with a modified (or possibly flexible) connecting pipe. Supporting the cistern wouldn't be a major problem because there is a range of supporting brackets available. These were in use until quite recently for low level separate pans / cisterns and of course there were the elaborate brackets used on high level cisterns.

A quick browse at Wickes or B&Q should give you some idea of what's available in the way of pipes and washers but you might find it easier to make your own cistern support brackets.

Cic.

[Roger Mills]

As far as I know, you can use more or less any cistern on either a close-coupled or rear-entry pan.

Each cistern has a large hole at the bottom through which the threaded outlet pipe from the syphon protrudes, held in place by a large (usually plastic) nut.

If used with a close-coupled pan, this oulet pipe simply has a large rubber doughnut round it which seals between cistern and pan. The large plastic nut also holds a cranked metal plate in place. Two bolts extend downwards from the right and left of the plate to attach it to the pan.

If used with a conventional pan, an additional fitting screws onto the syphon outlet pipe, to attach a J-shaped pipe which goes down and into the back of the pan.

In the close-coupled setup, the weight of the cistern is supported by the pan - and it's just steadied by a couple of screw into the wall. With a conventional pan, the cistern needs a couple of wall-mounted brackets under it for support.

[Anna Kettle]

Thanks for your comments ...

So it seems that the concept is possible and now I have to decide whether it is worth the faff to find and fit a close coupled type cistern or whether it will be easier to just get a hidden cistern and box it in ...

Anna

-- Anna Kettle Lime plaster repair and conservation Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc Tel:    (+44)  01359 230642 Mob:   (+44)  07976 649862 Please look at my website for examples of my work at:

 

[Mike Clarke]

The brackets probably aren't necessary. The low level cistern in our previous house was held up with just 2 screws and had been like that for about 40 years by the time we moved out. The current house has 2 toilets, one close-coupled and one low level. The low level one is supported by just a couple of Rawlbolts, it's probably been there for ten to twenty years and is showing no sign of wanting to part company from the wall.

[John]

............until the flush diaphragm starts to fail and people get violent with the handle!

[Mike Clarke]

That's happened several times and it still stayed on the wall.

[The Medway Handyman]

Some of the close coupled ones have SS bolts & cone shaped rubber washers which go through holes in the bottom of the cistern, that type wouldn't be ideal for a J pipe connection.

I've only ever come across lightweight plastic cisterns like this, which are just held by 2 screws, no brackets - they seem to hold up OK. Now you mention it though, thats quite a weight of water being held by just 2 screws.

[The Medway Handyman]

They do seem to stay put.

If you ever replace one its a right bugger getting the rusty screws out!

[Cicero]

========================================= A good reason to use hex head coach screws for this kind of job and for radiators. Much less danger of damaging with hex head / socket spanner combination.

Cic.

[Mike Clarke]

Not much weight really, even an old 9 litre cistern would only hold 9Kg of water.

[John]

My close coupled one has some very rusty screw heads - but of course the weight is taken by the pan

[<me9]

Should be brass but never are.

[<me9]

2 gallons, 20 lbs. a lot less than a kitchen cabinet with crockery similarly mounted.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember [e-mail] (Anna Kettle) saying something like:

You certainly can, for most of them. Just add in a conventional flush kit and pipe along with the push-button kit and mix and match the bits you need. Basically, most close-coupled cisterns have the same bottom hole as a normal one and holding it up is accomplished by brackets underneath as convention.

Of course, if you choose some Italian piece of china, all bets are off.