Loft conversion

[Sven]

Ok big subject I know. I am looking at purchasing a property that has had a loft conversion, all done by a reputable, professional company. The roof has been insulated as it should have been and the floor has been strengthened. 3 Velux windows are installed and one is an escape.

It comprises of a single room accessed from the landing area of the original house via a metal spiral stair. Apparently panning permission and building regs have not been sought as to comply it required massive changes to the house. As the house is a period cottage these changes would not be desirable and would detract from the property.

I have looked over the regs and I can see that it looks like the following items are the problems.

1. There is no door separating the 2nd floor from the first. To do this the only way I can see would be to add a false landing area and create a new wall with door at the top of the spiral stair. This will take up a great deal of space in that area as the house is not exactly big in the first place, making a door at the bottom would not be possible due to space. Is there an alternative?

1. The door at the bottom of the stair from the ground floor to the first floor needs to be replaced with a fire door. This is a pity as it is an original door. Again is there an alternative.

2. All the doors on the first floor need to be fitted with some kind of self closing mechanism, I guess rising hinges is the least intrusive, but again this may detract from the property, although not as much as some of the other things.

1. And this is the big one. I struggle to see this in the regs but the builders told them that as the door from the first floor exits to the kitchen at the back of the house a false corridor would need to be constructed to give direct access to a final escape. To do this would mean losing a good chunk out of the kitchen and either escaping in the lounge at the front or ripping out a very nice fireplace where the range used to be. Is this true? again any alternatives?

Any help you can give me would be very greatly appreciated, I love this house and don't want a silly thing like this to bugger up the purchase, from what I can tell the vendors have been told they will have to get building regs before the sale can go through, to be honest if I can sort out the issues myself I would rather they left well alone and I did it. I need to know what needs doing before I tackle that one.

Many thanks

Steve

[Phil L]

Why does there need to be a firedoor seperating floors? - these re not required in other houses.

Yes, leave it as it is.

I think you have read the PP rules wrong, why do upstairs doors need to be self closing? - I've never seen a house where these are in place, unless it is split into seperate living quarters, IE upstairs and downstairs flats.

Who has come up with all this tripe? - if it's builders, I would suggest getting someone else in, if it's solicitors (or someone instructed by solicitors) then it's a ploy to get the price reduced....if you really want the house, contact the seller and organise a survey, paid for by both of you

50/50....this sounds suspiciously like the work of a solicitor to me.

[Nigel Molesworth]

Don't touch it with a bargepole.

[Bob Mannix]

Almost none of it is "tripe" as it is all quite standard for loft conversions under all local authorities. The first floor represents a fire escape route from the second. All doors opening onto this route are required to be fitted with self-closers (aside from "wet" rooms, eg bathroom/toilet). Any new doors or old glazed doors must be fire doors. Usually solid originals (even if crap) can remain (which IS an anomaly). There will be a requirement for a 30 minute fire break between the loft conversion and the rest of the house, hence the door and walling to separate. As the rest hasn't been done, there is a possibility that there is insufficient fire protection through the first floor ceiling. You would probably also need linked fire alarms, but that's a small point. This is all to comply with the standard regulations. You do have the option of buying it anyway and not complying with the regulations, of course, which you may be comfortable with if no-one is ever going to sleep in the loft (who are most at risk from fire). The Velux as fire escape is also a requirement but it is to be accessible from the road by fire brigade ladder (usually within 1500mm or so of gutter) so you can be rescued in the 30 minutes the rest gives you.

[Sven]

It was the builders from what I have been told and nothing to do with the solicitors. The work was carried out about 2 years ago. I do want this house so maybe a survey is the way forwards. Thanks for the advice.

[Sven]

easy to say you have not seen that place. Easily the best property I have seen in ages and just what I am looking for.

[Sven]

Thanks Bob, useful information, what about the issue with the first floor exiting to the kitchen at the back of the house (you can get out to the back garden from here) does this cause a problem. I can see how the other items can get sorted without a great deal of problems, from what I have been told the floor was sorted out as it should have been, I will need to check to be sure if that includes the fire protection, at this point I am assuming it does, however a corridor needs constructing to enable access directly to a final exit it will mess the house up completely. The stairs exit in the middle of the house.

[Guy King]

The message from Sven contains these words:

might be a lot less hassle.

[The3rd Earl Of Derby]

Sounds like you're reading the planning stages of a dwelling that is converted to flats? as the new law states now that a dwelling which has three seperate floors coverted to flats which must have a means of ecape(FIRE ESCAPE)at each level ie back of dwelling, with the addition of adequate fire appliances fitted at each level.

[John Rumm]

No offence intended Phil, but it strikes me you have not read up on the building regs issues for loft conversions. None of what the OP described falls into the "tripe" catagory.

[Phil L]

WD George, that's pretty much what I said earlier, these fire regs are for flats, not loft conversions, especially not loft conversions that already have a fire escape in the loft, as mentioned by the OP.

[Phil L]

So what's the point of a fire escape Velux in the loft? 'Reputable, professional companies' as mentioned in the OP don't convert without plans / planning permission / BCO visits, even most smaller builders wouldn't touch it without these.

[Peter Crosland]

The question to ask is if the conversion was done according to the regulations at the time and were all regulatory permissions obtained? The vendor should produce those. If they can't then insist that they obtain the permissions before exchange of contracts. I would expect your solicitor to do this anyway. If they can't or will not produce the paperwork then walk away from it.

[Aidan]

Is it listed? I'd think probably not, but you could get stuck with costs for undoing the work if it was listed and permission wasn't obtained.

I think (not sure) that you can do such work without PP, but you can't describe the rooms as 'bedrooms' when selling.

[Sven]

No it is not listed, its from the Edwardian era, and they do not describe the room as a bedroom, however it is obviously being used as a bedroom. The estate agent told me that they will have to get the work sorted out before exchange otherwise they will need indemnity insurance against the conversion.

[Sven]

SNIP.....

Look at the regs

to page 25 and follow on for the next few pages, it does all look like it is needed for a loft conversion now.

If you look at diagram 3b this is very much like the layout of the ground floor, however fire door escape from the stair to final exit 2 is not there, only the escape to final exit 1 (the kitchen area) is.

Thanks for all this help guys, you are helping.

[John Rumm]

How reputable one would have to question if they did it all without building regs! ;-)

Planning permission may not have been required unless the place is listed or in a conservation area since you make mention of a front dormer or other roadside change to the roof line. If it was required then that is the issue that has most potential to come back a bite you. The ability for a BCO to enforce changes has a fairly short limit on how long after an infringement they can take action. So chances are they would be unable to enforce changes now anyway.

Not an obvious one... but see aproved document B of the building regs (more anon)

Where does the ground floor stair start? If it is in a hall for example (i.e. a non habitable room with exit to outside) then it may not even need a door.

Generally existing doors that open onto an escape route can be made to comply by adding a self closer (and as you say the rising butt hinges or the jam mounted chain closers are acceptable)

Only required on doors to habitable rooms. So bathroom etc can be ignored.

I am stuggling to visualise this - did you really mean first floor and not ground floor? Perhaps a sketch of the layout might help.

Much will depend on your attitude to these things and the use you are planing to make for the different rooms. The area of building regs that it sounds least compliant with is those relating to fire protection. It may also be that the requirement for 30 min fire protection to the ceiling of the first floor has also not been satisfied. (12.5mm plasterboard + skim will give it, but thinner board would require additional protection). Mains powered and interlinked smoke alarms could obviously be retrofitted without too much disruption.

If the top floor was to be used as a study then it may not be much of an issue. If however it was to be a childs bedroom then (personally) I would have serious concerns.

A read through Approved document B may help clarify some of these issues:

of these issues are covered on the site I did about my own loft conversion. You may find some more information here:

[John Rumm]

To enable you to be rescued using a ladder outside the property.

The purpose of the regulations regarding control of the spread of fire between stories is to keep you alive long enough for someone to get the ladder!

The two things, while related, are very different.

maybe[1] / that depends[2] / yes I agree / probably true! ;-)

[1] Full plans are usually drawn, however a small single room conversion could probably be done on a building notice. [2] Many conversions will not require planning permission.

[John Rumm]

Erm, no not really.

I suggest you start reading at section 2.17 in approved document B before eating too much more foot!

[Sven]

Hi John,

Well the vendor uses the term reputable but I did recognise the name, I suspect I am not in possession of all the facts. I believe they are trying to get retrospective planning permission, I will find out more about that tomorrow I hope.

To go over the layout again.

Ground floor has the living room at the front and the kitchen at the back, a small corridor joints the two under the stairs. The stairs are in the middle of the house, they are directly off the kitchen and lead to a landing area with 2 bedrooms and a bathroom. From that landing an open metal spiral stair rises and exits through the floor of the converted loft space. The converted loft space is only 1 room, has 3 velux windows on of which is an escape type.

I noticed that the cellings of all the first floor rooms has been recently re-plastered so I imagine that the fire resistance here is not in question.

The job itself has been done very well, no creeks, no wind noise (and it was a blowy day when I went to view it) very quite. It has been used as the master bedroom for the last 18 months, I would want to keep it as such.

From what I can tell planing permission would not have been needed, the space is less than 15% of the rest of the house (ok probably only just) and there are no changes to the roof other than the velux windows. There are no dormers or any changes to the roof line.

Clear as mud Ehh!

Steve