Liff Limebeater

[--s-p-o-n-i-x--]

Am considering having a Liff Limebeater installed along with a new boiler.

Are they any good?

(I live in a hard water area)

sponix

[John Rumm]

Dr. Drivel will be along shortly to tell you he has the one that apparently works... You can probably draw your own conclusions.

[Mary Fisher]

Mrs F is now here to ask what a Liff Limebeater is ...

Mary

[--s-p-o-n-i-x--]

Well, they are used in the process industry which leads me to believe they actually work.

They utilise an electrolytic effect which is a recognised and well understood reaction.

Also some top range boilers have electolytic scale inhibitors built in. The question is how well do they work?

sponix

[Capitol]

Well, they appear to sell for

[John Rumm]

Well if you have a read here:

get the usual flimflam:

"How Limebeater Works

Water passes through a small current generated by the dissimilar metals contained in the Limebeater. This electrolytic action changes the molecular structure of scale forming crystals, preventing them from forming a hard insulating layer. The Limebeater modifies the physical composition of the ions but no chemical reaction takes place."

Begs the question what pH water do you need to work as a suitable electrolyte? And if you have electrolosis going on then how long does your anode last before needing replacement. Finally how well does electrolysis work with a flowing electrolyte?

[Doctor Evil]

Some people have had good results from these.

[Andy Hall]

You're not supposed to plug it in to the electrolyte, it needs to be plugged into the wall....

[Bazza]

Yes electronic "softeners" do work contrary to replies from previous posts but it depends on what you expect from them. I installed one some twelve years ago after using them successfully in an industrial setting but don't expect them to make the water feel softer. I have noted particularly in the electric kettle that instead of the usual build up of hard lime scale on the element the lime content of the water ends up as a sludge in the bottom which is easily swilled out. Previously descaling the kettle, shower head etc.. took place monthly, (the water is very hard in the Dunstable area)nowadays I do it about every 6 months. Only had one downside when I installed it, I had a few soldered connections that started to weep as the lime that was plugging the cracks dissolved, as the father in-law helped me to re plumb the house I blamed his soldering, surly mine could not be at fault!

Bazza

--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:

[The Natural Philosopher]

Gosh. I wonder what it is that is meant by something that alters the phsyical composition without a chemical reacxtion taking place?

Since taht is precisely what a chemical reaction IS.

Electrolysis works at any PH exccept totally neutral. It just requres ions of some sort.

And if you have electrolosis going on then how long does

I think you will find that what is happening is not electrolysis.

The way its supposed to work is by biasing crystal formation from one type to another. so that e.g. you might, if it were water, get snow instead of ice...or in the case of carbon, soot instead of diamonds..

The basic idea being not to soften the water, but to keep the calcium carbonate in solution as a suspsension of fine powedery crystals, not a rock hard lump of scale.

I suspect it mnay even work if its banged up next to the pump or whatever you want to not get scaled up, but it isn't what I want in my house. I want soft water with no calcium in it at all to make my soap soapier and prevent calcium scums.

[Doctor Evil]

I have one and that is my experience too.

[s--p--o--n--i--x]

they are only £20 to buy new.

[s--p--o--n--i--x]

Err....no.

Try this experiment. Take a glass of lemon juice and place a steel nail and an offcut of copper pipe. Use a multimeter to measure the voltage between the copper and the steel. You'll find that a voltage is produced. This is electrolysis.

Many early central heating systems failed due to electolysis. Electrolysis would occur due to a mixture of metals being used in the system (Copper pipework, cast iron boiler etc) which would result in the copper being eaten away.

That's precicely why modern cylinders are fitted with "Sacrificial anodes"-electrolysis eats away at the anode rather than the copper pipework.

A positive effect of electolysis is that it inhibits the build up of scale.

Top of the range boilers contain electolytic scale inhibitors. The Liff Limebeater is an electrolytic scale inhibitor. (I'm not on about magnetic water conditioners or whatever as there is no scientific proof these work.)

My question isn't whether electrolytic scale inhibitors work-they do.

My question is whether they work well enough to warrant fitting to a heating system.

sponix

[s--p--o--n--i--x]

An electolytic scale inhibitor is an entirely different device to an electronic softener!

[John Rumm]

Hmm, one of the reasons I am wary of claims of this type ;-)

pH of tap water varies a fiar bit though. Hence any results you are going to get are going to be very variable depending on the area of the country you live in.

This beastie seemed to run without power and yet talked about current flow and the like. Hence the assumption it is functioning as a weak battery.

I can see how you may get some benefit on a recirculating system, but I would have thought any effect on a single pass system is going to be minimal.

Yup, or if you just want to be sure of preventing scale then fit a phosphate dosing unit.

[John Rumm]

I think you missed the invisible smilely on Andy's post...

(I susspect he knows how a battery works!)

Works well on oil rigs as well...

My question was how much electrolytic "effect" can you get on a single pass through it?

From the point of view of the heating side, not really since it is a single fill application. Yes the water will dump some scale, but once it has done so it won't do it again.

For the HW side of a system then that is a different matter. If you want to be sure then use a phosphate dosing system. This will prevent scale formation (without actually softening the water). The limebuster may or may not have an effect, but the way you find out is potentially expensive.

[s--p--o--n--i--x]

I did!

Yes.

No idea..

Will it be sufficient to justify a £10-£20 outlay. Part of me thinks it must be, otherwise they wouldn't fit them to top end boilers.

sponix

[John Rumm]

Something like a combimate will cost a bit more to install, but then running costs are something like 10 quid a year.

I presume there must be a running cost to limebuster since if it is behaving in a galvanic way it will have an anode that needs periodic replacement? (or more likely replacement of the complete unit).

[Doctor Evil]

That is highly suspect.

[Ian Stirling]

Even ultrapure water at any PH has some ions - it decomposes spontaneously into H+ and OH- ions, at some rate. (not practically usable for electrolysis)