Hot water to the bath....?

We have a combi boiler and when you run the hot tap after a few minutes, the hot water starts to flow quite well. When you run the water for the bath, the taps has to be turned virtually off to get really hot water out. I do appreciate that the hot water is dependant upon the speed of which the water passes through the boiler. Here's the bit I am curious about. From the boiler carrying the hot water is a 15mm copper pipe. This then feeds into the original 22mm copper pipe to the bath which is approximately 8 feet away. Isa it because of the 22mm pipe and the 3/4" tap that the tap has to be virtually off before water gets really hot. Comments most welcome. -- troubleinstore www.tuppencechange.co.uk
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troubleinstore wrote:

Normally the cold water flow rate into the boiler is throttled to achieve the best compromise between flow rate and temperature rise. Maybe this hasn't been adjusted how you would like it?
Lee
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troubleinstore wrote:

I can't see the pipe size making any real difference in this situtation.
Also you did not mention what make/model of boiler it is. The power of the boiler will dictate what flow rate of hot enough water you can get.
As Lee said, some people like to partially turn off the cold water inlet valve on the boiler (usually just a quarter turn valve just under the boiler - you will need a screwdriver to turn it probably). That way you can limit the supply of cold water to a rate that the boiler can heat to "hot enough". This will make running a bath a bit simpler since you can turn the bath tap full on, and know you will get hot rather than tepid water.
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:07:51 +0100, troubleinstore wrote:

The same flow from a bath tap on a basin tap will look pathetic from the bath tap. Especially if the tap is of a traditional style with a bell mouth spout.
Some boilers allow you set throttle the HW flow for the whole installation, this feature may well be useful to you.
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Ed Sirett wrote:

I thank the person who informed me that I had ommitted the bioler information. It is a Alpha 'OCEAN' 240XP. I have had a look where the cold water supply goes into the boiler and there is what appears to be a screw head on the mains water inlet valve. Is this the thing I have to turn to regulate the flow into the boiler. There are no other valves on the cold water inlet pipe. I can't find anything in the installation and servicing instruction booklet that refers to HW flow. Yep, the bath taps are of the traditional style. -- troubleinstore www.tuppencechange.co.uk
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troubleinstore wrote:

According to the SDA boiler database program that has a max power of just over 23kW. Not sure if that is its input or output power however. Since its efficency is low at 70% that could mean the actual power going into heating the water could be as low as 16kW.
That translates to a feeble 6.5 litres/min at a 35 degree rise (or better but ot great 9.5 l/m if the 23kW is output rather than input power). That ought to be OK for a shower - but running a bath is going to be on the slow side.

Sounds like that could be the one. You may find it is of the ball valve type - when the screw head is inline with the pipe it is full on, and rotated 90 degrees it is completly off. Try running a hot tap full on and then slowly turning the screw a little and see if you can reduce the flow rate. You should be able to find a point where the water is running hot enough with the tap fully on. Remember that if you do this the setting of the flow restriction will change in the summer as the ground water gets warmer.

It is low enough they probably thought the less said about it the better ;-)
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John Rumm wrote:

According to the Installation & Servicing Instruction booklet:- The maximum output available for domestic hot water is 23.3 kW (79,500 Btu h), capable of providing 9.5 litres/min with a temperature rise of 35 deg C.
We didn't know anything about central heating boilers when we moved in and so we were in the hands of the heating engineer. I must admit though that looking at this so called proffessionals quality of work, if needed again at my next house, I will do all the central heating and just have someone to commission the boiler.
Knowing what I know now from reading various threads on this group, a better boiler would have been installed. -- troubleinstore www.tuppencechange.co.uk
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troubleinstore wrote:

Just a thought...
We have an Alpha Ocean 280E boiler. Have you got the hot water thermostat control (I assume there is one as there is on ours) set somehwere near maximum? This, I think, should set the maximum water temperature irrespective of the flow rate. However, on ours wherever it is set you can still get VERY hot water initially, before the thermostsat kicks in, and if you turn the hot tap down. With it set to max the bath tap can be on full and the water too hot to touch.
Andy
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Andy P wrote:

Yep, the temperature control is set at max on the boiler. Turn hot tap on the bath fully on and you get lukewarm water, turn it down so as you get less flow than the sink tap and you get really hot water, out of both taps. That was why I was asking in the original post if the 22mm original pipework that the 15mm hot water pipe from the boiler fed into would make any difference. -- troubleinstore www.tuppencechange.co.uk
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On Mon, 10 May 2004 12:04:15 +0100, troubleinstore

I believe the 'flow' is generally set by biggest restriction in the system. In you case this could be the 15mm pipe or more likely the water heater itself. Once the water hits the 22mm it simply slows down because of the increased volume of the pipe (but the same l/min).
My instant water heater is fed with (unrestricted) 15mm mains water but also uses (mostly) 22mm to the bath as I was due to have a cylinder there at one point. The only 'issue' for me is how much water you have to run (waste?) before you get the hot through.
We get 'enough' rate to fill a bath with 'bearably' hot water but wouldn't be able to run the sink or basin taps at the same time (2 of 3 of us (electric) shower anyway) ;-)
All the best ..
T i m
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 21:44:36 +0100, troubleinstore wrote:

Don't use the 1/4 turn service isolator for controlling the flow rate. Put a gate valve or stop valve that works well when partially open/closed.
Turning the the HW thermostat on the boiler to a high setting permits the boiler to make scaldingly hot water, it will not enable it to make more useable HW.
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Ed Sirett wrote:

I'm trying to get my head round this...
The HW thermostat seems to control the max temp of the hot water but does not alter the flow through the boiler. So with the thermostat on the highest setting if I have 12.5 l/min running through the boiler I will epxect it to be heated to 45C, assuming the cold is 10C. By turning the HW thermostat down I can reduce this temperature. If I reduce the flow of water through the boiler I can increase the maximum temperature - if I can raise 12.5 l/min by 35C then I should be able to raise 10 l/m in by more than 35C but will the thermostat limit the max temp of the water?
If I want a shower at say 42C through a thermostatic shower mixer valve how does it work and where should the bolier HW thermostat be set? The thermostatic shower mixer valve will take hot and cold water and mix it to make it 42C. If, to do this, it has to reduce the hot water flow then won't the boiler heat the hot water even hotter and so cause the thermostatic shower mixer valve to reduce the hot flow even more etc etc. If the hot water isn't at 42C to start with then my shower will never be hot enough, but it would seem from the above that I should have my HW thermostat set at the highest value, although I can see that this isn't a good idew when it comes to non-thermostatically controlled taps at washbasins and sinks.
I'm probably being dim here but I would be interested in the theory behind all of this.
Andy
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Andy P wrote:

That is right...

You would increase the temperature - but not the maximum. The boiler should not produce water hotter than the maximum temperature set on its thermostat regardless of how low the flow rate.

Yes.
It could also do it by leaving the hot flow untouched and raising the cold flow rate. Not sure if they all use the same technique - guess I will find out shortly when I install a thermostatic shower mixer ;-)

If that were the case it would end up reducing the flow until the max temperature as set on the boiler was reached. Thereafter a further reduction in flow rate will have the effect of lowering the mix temperature.

True.
I would set it a bit hotter than the maximum temperature you are likely to want for a bath or shower. That way the mixer can achieve the required mix and you don' run the risk of boiling the next person washing their hands under the hot tap.

Not dim really - good set of questions in fact - I will be interested to hear the responses who have showers of this type on a combi.
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On Tue, 11 May 2004 02:35:59 +0100, John Rumm

Hi,
I would have thought that if the boiler is non modulating, it will cut out once the temperature set on the thermostat is reached.
If this is the case it may be best to use the mixer with the flow to set to maximum, so the mixer does not restrict the flow from the boiler.
Also thermostatic mixers have a maximum hot water operating temperature, so it would be worth setting the thermostat on the boiler some way below this.
cheers, Pete.
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:07:51 +0100, troubleinstore

You can get a bit of a temperature drop through uninsulated copper piping over that distance.
In our house, we insulated the hot water pipe between the boiler and the bath / shower. It made a real difference to the temperature.
Graham
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troubleinstore wrote:

ditch the combi. And get a hot water tank.

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wrote:

If you are someone who likes to spend ages in the shower, then a hot water tank is a pain. It's runs out of hot water. I also find that the water pressure of a hot water tank tends to be quite low.
The only real advantage for a hot water tank is the ability to fit a power shower. However, this empties the hot water fairly quickly.
Graham
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Graham Wilson wrote:

If the hot water tank is in the loft below the header tank then the pressure will be much better, but, like when I was living at home, the hot water tank was in the bedroom and even filling a bath from the tap was like watching paint dry.

Never had a power shower but I take your point.

-- troubleinstore www.tuppencechange.co.uk
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On Mon, 17 May 2004 17:06:31 +0100, troubleinstore

My brother had a hot water tank and a power shower. The power shower pump would pump the water from the tank at a very high pressure. It was like having a shower under Niagra Falls.
However, even when the tank was very hot, it could only provide sufficient hot water for around 10 minutes.
Graham
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Graham Wilson wrote:

I never have a shower lasting more than 5 mins...... -- troubleinstore www.tuppencechange.co.uk
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