Hall/Landing lights - convention.

Most houses have the hall & landing lights two way switched, and have 'upstairs lights' and 'downstairs lights' breakers/fuses.

I were changing a landing light fitting t'other day & pulling the downstairs fuse left it on.

I thought the landing light took its power from the 'downstairs' lights?

Is there an accepted way of wiring these up of is either acceptable?

Reply to
The Medway Handyman
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Don't know, but mine - 10yr old build uses the upstairs circuit.

Reply to
Mike Dodd

I'll bet that you had a borrowed neutral on the landing light

Adam

Reply to
ARWadsworth

The Medway Handyman pretended :

I would suggest - most usual would be on the upstairs circuit.

  1. It is an upstairs light.
  2. It would be easier to wire if done correctly [1].
  3. It will usually be the lightest loaded circuit anyway.
[1] But be aware of neutrals being borrowed from other than the circuit it is actually fed from.
Reply to
Harry Bloomfield

Is that some sort of insider joke? Why would borrowing a neutral have any effect or are you suggesting that handymen don't put the switches in the correct place?

Reply to
dennis

It is not a joke. Touch a borrowed neutral. It bites.

I am suggesting that a handyman may have seen a borrowed neutral that was installed by a bad electrician. It is not a joke, insider or otherwise.

Adam

Reply to
ARWadsworth

There doesn't. BEWARE! One recent installation I was checking had the hall/landing lights fed from both upstairs and downstairs circuits, depending on which way the 2 way switches were set, due to a mistake in the wiring.

Personally, I'd prefer them both fed from the same circuit, preferably the downstairs* circuit, to prevent this problem.

A problem I had with the installation in this house was skimping on the neutral, connecting the landing light to the downstairs live and the upstairs neutral, found out the hard way!

  • Marginally safer in allowing lights on the stairs to get down if the upstairs lights fail. (If downstairs lights fail an upstairs light will usually light the stairs with a door left open.)
Reply to
<me9

Yes, but in my house, the hall and landing lights both have 2-way switching - with one 2-gang switch in the hall and another on the landing. Both lights are fed from the downstairs circuit. If the hall were fed from downstairs and the landing from upstairs, you'd have to turn off *both* breakers in order to isolate the switches - so that *surely* can't be good practice?

Reply to
Roger Mills

If you don't know what you are doing, then why are you playing with such things in a "professional" capacity?

Did you check to see if the power was off before you started playing with the wires? If you didn't, then that was two 'cardinal sins' committed:

1 You lack the qualifications to carry out such work in any capacity (amateur [as a handyman] or professional). 2 You lack knowledge of the required safety procedures to carry out such work.

Perhaps now that you are a handyman running a business, then perhaps the HSE ought to be informed about your lack of safety procedures (both for yourself and your customers safety) and asked to visit you at your registered business address [1] to make you aware of them before an accident (or incident) occurs.

Note: that this really isn't a personal attack or wind-up ( I can't be bothered tonight) but simply an observation from the comments and questions that you post on this group - many of those really do raise serious doubts as to your capabilities for *SAFELY* doing some of the work you do as a "professional" Handyman.

Remember that if a person is injured or killed by your incompetence in doing a job, then it's you (as a sole trader) who carries the can - along with possibly serving a stretch at 'Her Majesty's Pleasure' and for paying any awarded compensation.

As I said, this is a valid observation, but I am expecting your normal vitriolic reply to such comments - along with your favourite acronym -- FOAD (but before you use that one, reflect on my last paragraph) -- so thinking of *YOUR* safety by preventing an incidence of Repetitive Strain Injury - DON'T bother to reply if that's the response.

1 If you have one that is. If not, then your home address.
Reply to
Unbeliever

================================================

I raised exactly the same subject some months ago and Mr.Wadsworth and several other respondents described the arrangement as a 'borrowed neutral', and they unanimously agreed that it's fairly common despite being bad practice.

This diagram which I posted at the time shows the arrangement:

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Reply to
Cicero

Our are on the upstairs circuit and this has proved very useful - in the early hours of one morning we walked in and turned the hall light on, a bulb blew and tripped the breaker, but of course the other downstairs lights were on their own breaker and so by opening the kitchen door, we could get enough light to see the alarm keypad to disarm it before we woke half the street!

SteveW

Reply to
Steve Walker

Exactly my thoughts Roger.

Reply to
The Medway Handyman

On the other hand some houses don't actually have a downstairs light, relying only on an upstairs one (particularly where there's an open staircase in the living room). If there were to be a convention, it would therefore make sense for the landing/hall lights to be on the upstairs circuit.

SteveW

Reply to
Steve Walker

Handymen don't 'put' switches anywhere. They replace like for like.

Reply to
The Medway Handyman

formatting link
is that a borrowed neutral? Only one neutral is connected, its the two lives that's the problem. Using proper three core and earth makes the whole thing somewhat easier.

Reply to
dennis

Possibly the best solution would be to have a completely separate circuit (clearly labelled at the CU) for the hall/landing lights, in view of the safety aspect of lighting a staircase. Be careful though - some landing/hall switches also serve to do vestibule ('lobby') lighting (typically in older townhouses), and it's not a very good idea to have a, say, triple-gang, switch fed from more than one fuse/MCB, in a domestic scenario.

I was involved with a small theatre a while ago. In the 'studio' there were fluorescent 'working' lights and a couple of tracks with R80 type spots (as well as the usual lighting bar/dimmerpack stuff).

The fluoros and the spots were fed from separate fuses in a Wylex

2-way switch-fuse.

I was replacing the fluoros (for twin luminaires) using the spots for working light; I disconnected the (conduited) wiring from one of the fluoros and the place fell into total darkness - the neutral had been shared between both sets of lighting. Fortunately I had a Dragonlight and a headlight handy, and had been following the good practice of keeping fingers clear of screwdriver blades whilst 'dissing' (or connecting) wires.

All this carry-on for the sake of saving a few feet (probably less than 20') of black 3/0.029 wire...

Indeed.

Reply to
Frank Erskine

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Unbeliever" saying something like:

Snip s**te.

Why don't you f*ck off back to the log you live under?

Reply to
Grimly Curmudgeon

Whilst not a fan of the Elfin Safety mob, I think your suggestion has legs. If I were to build/ purchase a new house, I would ask for that, having had a belt from the landing light switch of a block of four flats designed for and occupied by elderly folk, (despite having been assured that the landing lighting was run through one specific meter for the upstairs flats).

Reply to
Clot

I would say its fairly standard practice actually these days. Most electricians would be aware of the possibility that the hall and landing switches may contain live wires energised from the other circuit.

(I have wired said arrangement myself in the past)

Reply to
John Rumm

You swine, Sir! I've now got a vin rouge haze upon the screen in front of me. However, well said.

Reply to
Clot

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