EU lamps

So, all halogen lamps are due to be banned in 2016 as part of the EU's long schedule to move to energy efficient lamps. A lot of the original push for this came from the EU lighting industry which was keen to move people to more profitable products.
Well, it seems the EU lighting industry is changing it's mind, although the EU isn't changing it's mind as yet. The lighting industry wants the halogen ban pushed back to 2020, claiming that LEDs will not be ready by 2016.
Lighting market experts are claiming this is because the EU lighting industry is going to see its profits plummet. People won't pay the higher prices EU manufacturers charge for LED lamps, still expecting lamps to cost £1 regardless of the efficiency or lifetime expectations. This means the market will go to China. Furthermore, the life of LED lamps by then is expected to be 20 years, so the product volume will be vastly smaller than halogens. The halogen lamp market is still profitable for EU lighting industry, and they will see that vanish overnight.
So in a bizzare move which would seem to rubbish their own LED products, they are are now trying to stop the EU going ahead with the halogen ban in 2015, which they pushed so hard for 10 years earlier.
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Andrew Gabriel
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On 23/12/14 17:17, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

You couldn't make it up. Except they have been making it up, all along, really.
--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll
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There has been consideable pressure to keep halogen lamps from the theatre. LED using lanterns that work are still remarkably expensive and the amateur side of the business which relies on 2nd hand kit from the pro side could well have to go dark. I was at Chichester this summer where there has been a multi-million pound refurbishment, but they are still using good quality halogen units.
--
From KT24

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On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:46:51 PM UTC, charles wrote:

e.

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y
LED isn`t ready entirely for theatre , brightness and colour rendering are 2 issues that spring to mind nevermind cost, from someone who`s living is i n LED lighting for entertainment.
http://www.luxreview.com/news/547/lighting-industry-says-leds-are-not-ready -for-mass-consumer-uptake-blasts-anti-halogen-report
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wrote:

"Compnaies ... must in the long run find a new way to make money, which could include selling lighting services as well as connectivity hardware and software that ties digital lamps (LEDs are semiconductors) into information networks"
Am I alone in finding the idea that "normal" consumers will pay for their lighting to be connected into some sort of network (for whatever benefit), laughable
tim
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tim..... wrote:

    Well, they're prepared to send money to Nigeria, will click on any link and believe in global warming, so it seems very likely to me! The wording possibly should have been "whatever improbable benefit"?
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and will pay extra for bundled TV to "lock" themselves into the same Telco for all of their telecoms needs, just because it comes through a box that's supplied for "free" without first discovering that they can buy a box that does exactly the same thing for 50 quid if they install it themselves.
I really though that the Telcos would never manage to con Joe Public into falling for this scam. It seems I was wrong!
tim
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wrote:

Likely not, but it does make sense anyway.
Its perfectly possible to have a completely automatic system that means you don't ever need to turn a light on or off again and the system does that all for you. Not at a sensible price in the past, but very possible now. And you don't have to fart around with the wiring for light switches etc anymore either.
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wrote:

Um
how the hell would somebody outside my house know when I want to turn on(/off)
the kitchen light the lounge light the bedroom light the bathroom light
not to mention,
the light in the little storage cupboard in the hallway?
tim
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wrote:

We aren't talking about somebody outside your house, we are talking about a system that works out where people are using PIR sensors etc and using that data and ambient light sensors and the time of day to decide what makes sense light wise.
Perfectly possible and I have been doing it for years now.
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wrote:

but would you pay a monthly charge to have it?
tim
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wrote:

There doesn't have to be a monthly charge to have it.
I don't even pay a monthly charge to have a mobile phone service.
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On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 6:45:42 PM UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:

e 2 issues that spring to mind nevermind cost, from someone who`s living is in LED lighting for entertainment.

LED isn't entirely ready for the home, yet, for not completely dissimilar r easons. Colour rendering* is pretty dreadful compared to incandescent lamps, althou gh of all people, IKEA are selling some higher CRI LED lamps - instead of t he the entirely normal low 80s, some of their LEDARE lamps have CRIs in the high 80s.
Apart from that, the other issue is dimming: while dimmable LED lamps are p roduced, almost all of them simply reduce their intensity while maintaining the same colour temperature. This is not what incandescent lamps do - they get redder at lower light intensities, and people like me like this attrib ute. Philips do make some LED lamps that change colour temperature from abo ut 2700K to 2200K as they are dimmed (Master LEDlamps Dimtone), but they ar e not easily found, don't cover the full range of domestic lamp formats, an d are rather expensive.
Also, for LED lamps that are meant to be like-for-like replacements of exis ting incandescent lamps, there are problems associated with transformers an d dimmers. If a transformer is designed to run halogen incandescents, it ma y well be very inefficient, or even struggle to properly light the lower wa ttage LED lamps. Some transformers simply cut out if the demand on them is too low. Similarly dimmers can be rated for working with a minimum wattage, which is higher than the total wattage of LED lamp replacements - so exist ing dimmers may not work. There are other reasons existing dimmers may not work: their dimming mechanism/mode of action may be incompatible with what the LED lamp expects (cf leading edge and trailing edge dimmers)
So, to replace some halogen lamps with LEDs, I could well need to replace a transformer and/or dimmer, which will begin to eat into the cash savings b y the lamps using less energy.
In my own personal case, I have some G4 light fittings built into a bathroo m mirror. I can't replace them with LEDs, as the transformer has a minimum load of 10 watts, and if I replace all the lamps with LED replacements, the load will still be lass then 10 watts. So I need to replace the transforme r too. But, as this is in a country (not UK) where a transformer repalcemen t has to be done by an electrician (DIY is not allowed), I need to pay for an electrician to do this. The cash saving on my electricity bill would pay back for the electrician and transformer in about 14 years (depending on t he assumptions, that is quite variable: it could be as little a 7, or as mu ch as 28 years). That's not a good ROCE.
Regards,
Sid
*CRI is not a good measure of colour rendering. There is plenty of critcism of it, including examples of how it can be gamed to give a a good result o n paper and appalling results in practice. I believe there is a move to rep lace it with a combination of Color Quality Standard (CGS) and Gamut Area I ndex (GAI), but changes in this standards area are slow, so we are currentl y stuck with a poor index.
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With price, sure.

Quite different reasons actually, mostly price.

Its arguably better than incandescent lamps, just different.

Not really. And how many bother with dimming anyway ? While mine can do that, I hardly ever bother.

That's what should happen. Decide what color temp you want with a particular situation and stick with that when dimming.

Makes no sense to imitate what incandescents do.

Then you can use those fancy LEDs that allow full control over the color remotely and dial up whatever intensity and color you like in any particular situation. You can't do that with any other light technology. Completely programmable color temp too if you want that.

There are plenty of fully programmable LEDs.

The fully programmable ones are.

Then change the lamp holder. And many of the lamp formats are there because of the intrinsic limitations with particularly lamp technologys so it makes no sense to continue with those with the move to LEDs.

For now. They don't have to be and won't be for long.

Trivial to fix that too.

So change those when changing to LEDs.

Ditto.

Ditto.

Ditto.

Ditto.

No big deal.

Sure, but again, wait for a while and it will be a complete yawn.

No big deal.

Just replace the whole mirror, easily fixed.

Not if you replace the entire thing.

Just an edge case.

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On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 7:25:18 PM UTC, Rod Speed wrote:

I'm aware of this type of example: http://blog.lampartners.com/lighting-des ign/cri-and-gai-a-new-way-to-look-at-color-rendering.html It is an example of the issues with CRI. Certainly, it is possible to engin eer LED systems to provde good GAI and good CRI (and, for good measure, goo d CQS - http://www.colorqualityscale.com /), but supermarket shelves are sca rcely flooded with LED lamps with these attributes.

Not everyone has the same behaviour as you with regard to dimming. Somebody is buying and installing all those dimmers, so there does seem to be a dem and, even if it is not of interest to you. You are perfectly entitled to vi ew it as unnecessary frippery, but it is a view not universally shared, and it is as well to accomodate divergent views, where possible. There could w ell be some things you like doing that other people regard as not worth bot hering about. People do have different tastes.

Possibly not, but there does seem to be a (small) market for it. There are many things that make no sense to some, but are moneyspinners.

I'd be interested in the programmable colour temperature LED technology you refer to: could you provide a link, please? The CRI of programmable RGB L ED arrays is generally appallingly low.

If you could give me one or two examples, that would be great. Note that I would be looking for programmable colour temperature, not just programmable colour.

Your criteria for determining what is trivial appear to be different from m ine. I have no problem with that. I'm not sure if yours is the more mainstr eam view, but I am sure you will be certain whether your view is or not.

Obviously, yes, but it does change the payback period and evaluation of whe ther it is economically worth it.

As you may be aware, opinions differ on that.

I surely will wait a while. I love it when early adopters spend money ironi ng out the bugs for me to buy capable products at low prices, so I'm very g rateful to such people.

Well, it is a bigger deal than you might think. The number of people who fe el sufficiently adept to change a transformer is a pretty small proportion of the population.

Still required to use an electrician to install it.

Afraid not. Electrician still required. This is not relevant to uk.d-i-y as the flat is outside the UK, but still affected by EU legislation. However, if I can no longer obtain the G4 halogen lamps, I am in a position where I potentially have to replace an entire mirror (and make good the wall etc a s whatever I replace it with will inevitably be a different size) - incurri ng a significant expenditure. As I explained, the payback period is longer than most accounting systems would regard as sensible.

One of many - that's just one fitting in the flat. I appear to have a flat full of edge cases.

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And you can go far further than that with the multicolor LEDs that allow you to program any color temp you like and any brightness you like and anything you like as you dim it etc.

Sure, but its early days for the more fancy stuff like I mentioned above.

Sure, but its less clear how many actually use dimming much.

But its less clear how many actually use them much in the long term.

I didn't say that. I JUST wonder how many dim much.

Corse it isn't.

Sure.

Irrelevant to what we are discussing, whether LEDs are viable domestically.
LEDS do in fact provide MUCH more capability if you do want to dim, being able to do anything you like with the color temp at different light levels etc.

Maybe not, maybe there is some advantage in a different color temp at different light levels, but that's much easier to do with LED. With everything else you are stuck with what the technology does when its dimmed.

For dimming, sure. Not clear how much of a market there is for dimming that changes color the way incandescents do tho and that's trivially doable with the multicolor LEDs anyway.

Not that many at all actually.
The real money spinners like mobile phone do make sense for the bulk of the market.

I haven't bothered to keep track of them, essentially because the price makes no sense domestically currently.

Generally isn't what matters.

Nope. Trivial means that all you have to do is change the stuff associated with the lamp as well as the lamp if that needs to be done. Not a shred of rocket science required.

Your certainty is misplaced.

Not over the long haul.

Duh.

Nope.

But plenty are quite capable of replacing the entire mirror with another one done with LEDs instead.

Only in your jurisdiction which is quite unusual in that respect.

A tiny subset of the world so not relevant to what is being discussed.

There will always be a few edge cases like that.

Accounting systems are irrelevant to obscure edge cases.

Hardly any involve that sort of major effort to replace entirely.

I don't believe that.
And even if you did, it isnt relevant to what is being discussed.

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On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 9:37:49 PM UTC, snipped-for-privacy@mail.com wrote:

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-globe/wifi-compatible-variable-color-temperature-led-bulb,-6w-w-rf-remote/1798/
U.S. vendor of typical example, ebay will find a few, usually white and amber or cool white warm white mix , also in strip format. Some are better than others.
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On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:30:09 PM UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:

Thank-you for that Adam. I appreciate the link.
Sid
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On Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:25:18 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:

Well that's a good reason they aren't quite ready. and not all will fit in the so called GU10s. Especailly the ones you can dim.

It's can't be better as that makes little sense. Better in what way ?

Mine are always dimmed except in very unsual situtations such as when I've droped something on the floor. The only light I have that isnat dimmable is in the bathroom and hall lighting. Where I sit I tend to find I like to se t my own light level depending on what IU';m doing watching the TV it's dow n lower than on the computer, if I'm listening rather than watching somethi ng I have the lights almost off.

Personally I don't feel a need to adjust the colour temperature. I know you can get those fancy bulbs/LEDs you can contol from your phone. all my dimmables are halogen, want to replace them with LEDs at some point.

Unless you want to simulate the effect of incandescents. It's like theres little point in glass coals with flickering flame effect.

Yes a nice toy, can't think of any practical use other than effect. They are quite expensive too and as I donl;t need that much contol of light ing.

Like the GU10 LEDs that I brough that won't fit in the GU10 sockets.

Well until then, perhaps Gold mwe come down in price too as more gets mined .

But they havent fixed the problems they ignore them and state the LEDs life span is 50,000+ hours but only if they are on for less than 4 hours per day . of course if they really lasted as lo9ng as stated they'd give proper guara ntees of say even just TWO years were you could take it back without question for a refund. Would;t be difficult to put a date stapm on a bulb would it ?

depends on how many you have and the total cost.

I remmebr beign told that electricity would be so cheap with nuclear power that they wouldn't even bother metering it.

translated as I don't understand.

he could always change countries ;-) taking the mirrow with him.

Then it would cost mnore and payback would take longer.
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Typical EU attitude -ban them rather than let market forces make them obsolete. They are just about as expensive to run as old incandescents. As led prices drop people will switch away from halogen - and cfls too, I've recently bought 3 "60w" leds to replace 2x cfls and one tungsten. Instant light and brighter both types. Paid about £7 each and they are only 9.6 watt compared to the cfl 12w
--
bert

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