Electric central heating via radiators?

[Ed Sirett]

And avoiding pressure build up or more likely kettling noises caused by localized boiling.

[tim.....]

Look guys,

There's an easy way to solve this "what costs the least" argument.

It's offer everyone the same guaranteed deal (lets say 10p per unit, indexed for 20 years) and see which ones the banks will finance.

(Not forgetting that the Carbon unfriendly ones will have to pay the Carbon tax out of that 10p)

tim

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher saying something like:

Hahahahaha. Next, you'll be telling us how safe it is to back to Chernobyl, and how much of it was overstated, just like some of the other rabidly pro-nukers.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the two.

Fwiw, I like nukes, I was born and brought up with them - the only thing I don't like about them is the disposal of wastes problem.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel" saying something like:

Ding!

All that craggy coastline of W.Ireland, W.Scotland, and the S.W of England could be put to good use instead of wasting it on seagulls. Not a chance of that happening while there are nimbys in the world.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Ed Sirett saying something like:

Insulating properties too.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Sadly it cant supply anything LIKE all of the UK's energy needs.

[Dave Baker]

The estimates of total wave or wind power potential are so vague and so dependant on initial assumptions it's almost impossible to evaluate them. Near-coast wave power potential could be as much as 25% of the UK energy requirement and deep sea wave power potential is many times higher. Total global wind power is much higher than total world energy usage by a huge factor in most estimates. It just needs harnessing. It already accounts for

20% of Denmark's energy requirement and that's factored to grow to 50% in the next 15 years. If we need to do anything it's reduce population. There are too many of us plundering the Earth's resources. Put the global population back to 1960 levels of 3 billion instead of the current 6 billion plus and we'd be laughing. Instead of the government giving out child allowances they should be penalising births like they do in China.

[Doctor Drivel]

It can. Source: Marks Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, 11th Ed.

2006

Average tidal ranges:

Irish Sea 6.7m Parts of the West coast of India 7m Kimberly coast (Australia) 12m San Jose, Argentina 7m Kislaya Guba and Menzen, North West Russia, (unknown range) Sea of Okhotsk, Russian Far East (unknown/secret sites) Rance, France 8m Bristol Channel 9.8m (highest in Europe but not scalable enough) Bay of Fundy, New Brunswick, Canada 12m Passantaquoddy Bay, Maine, USA 5.5m Surprisingly that's about it, excluding sparsely populated parts of the world that are nowhere near demand.

For comparison only - North Sea 3.6m (from Marks) Average of all the earth's seas and oceans 0.6m (not from Marks) Lower Galveston Bay, USA, 0.2m (not from Marks)

Of these only the Irish Sea offers vast scalability in proximity to demand. The most-cited objection to large scale development is that deployment of multiple large lagoons will produce dangerous strong currents and modelling of them has not been done. Those are not valid objections.

20% of the Irish Sea needed to meet 100% of British demand is probably more than 50% of the good shallow exploitable parts of the British share of the Irish Sea. The deepest waters will be left for shipping, and the beaches and inshore boating zones left so there is plenty of space in all. They will need to build railway bridges not causeways from the shore to the first lagoon wall in each region to facilitate cheaper bridge construction from Britain to Ireland and the Isle of Man.

---------------- How Lagoons Work

There are a number of them at various states of water levels. There will always be power generated. Think of one large dam wall in a circle in a shallow sea, split it into three sections. The centre section could be 30 foot below the outer two and the high tide level, and fill up via the other two or the high tide.

It is a matter of having the lagoons filling and emptying at different times to ensure full power production 24/7. A test lagoon is being suggested at Swansea in South Wales.

This is different to tidal only at La Rance, France. La Rance is just one power station. It only generates when the tide is running one-way. It is quite old now - 1966. Pioneering it is.

Political Spite Makes Matters Worse

Hard nosed cost/benefit eliminated the British coal industry (or more political spite by Thatcher hating miners). Middle Eastern oil was buttons to buy and the North Sea was full of cheap gas. Mrs Thatcher was told to reserve the gas for primarily domestic use and not use it to generate electricity - use the masses of coal we have under the country to only generate electricity. She never. The coal industry disappeared with amazing stocks still under our feet. The North Sea is running out of oil and gas.

Fuel Poverty is a major Problem

Domestic gas prices went through the roof because of world market conditions - the Uks gas is mainly imported. Fuel poverty is now a major problem.

Long Term Political View is Important

We are now are semi-dependent on Russian gas as we used a lot of our own reserves needlessly. Russia refused to supply gas to the Ukraine a few years ago, so alarm bells rang. We need stable fuel supplies. We get oil and gas from the politically unstable Middle East and Russia - which is a political concern over cost/benefit. They have to look at the long term and stability, not short term gains of utility companies. Then there is the important eco angle too. Tidal lagoons are both the long-term practical answer and politically acceptable.

25 Year Project

It will take 25 years. However benefits will come quicker than expected.

The electricity will be introduced in phases, Knock-on effect fresh water reservoirs from rock excavations to combat water shortages, bridges, etc, by rock excavations. Increased insulation levels in buildings at the same would reduce oil, coal and gas dependency rather quicker than expected. Coal, gas and nuclear stations can be decommissioned and any planned costs in introducing nuclear stations will off-set the lagoons building costs. Such a scheme would bring zero unemployment, saving on public social benefits over 25 years. There is the comfort of not being under the reliance of foreign countries for energy, and being over-friendly with countries you would rather not be. Savings on military as the world will be a more peaceful place - oil has created wars. The UK over 25 years can easily construct and afford such a scheme. Advances in rock cutting & transporting machines and methods would ensue. The technology and design and build can be exported elsewhere for others too.

Unprecedented Project

To meet 100% of Britain and Ireland's need for energy, this is clearly possible and mostly involves hauling rock from mountains and valleys to the sea on an unprecedented scale.

The British Isles geography is the best in the world for such an undertaking with its high tidal rises and falls. It involves moving about 2,500 million tons of rock to the Irish Sea Tidal lagoons created out of about 20% of the Irish Sea

100% of Britain and Ireland's electricity needs met. The numbers are staggering but possible: A heavy train can move perhaps 500 plus tons of rock About 4 or 5 million train loads are needed The UKs waste can be dumped into the lagoon walls while under construction, saving on landfill and re-cycling costs. It would take maybe 30 railways to haul rock from say 30 large quarries over 25 years

There Are Many Knock-On Benefits

The insides of hills and mountains can be cut out for the rock and lakes constructed top and bottom to make provision for instant use peak time hydro stations for half time energy peaks in major football games on TV. New valleys can be created New lakes Fresh water reservoirs Rail and road tunnels through mountains Rail and road bridges across the Irish Sea Deep water ship canals can be cut inland, reducing rail and road transport of goods - good result for quarried rock. Some lagoons can be supertanker harbour/terminals, keeping these massive pollution risk vessels away from the shore. The lagoon walls built can also be bridges The lagoons can also be anti tidal surge barriers. Empty the lagoons at low tide when a surge is expected and allow the lagoons to fill taking excess water - London will go under if nothing is done. Fish can be farmed inside the lagoons preventing foreign trawlers overfishing and all fish goes to the UK.

Fuel Poverty & Pollution Eliminated

Fuel poverty and pollution will be a thing of the past.

Cheap Fast Transport

The EU has a transport dept that looks at transport for the EU 20, 30, 40 years hence. The aim is super fast intercity trains between all major cities/centres. One idea is a tunnel between Liverpool and Dublin. As Holyhead is the halfway point between the two cities that appears a dumb suggestion and a loooooong expensive tunnel. But a tunnel from Ireland to North Wales at the shortest point and then a fast link to Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, London is feasible.

However, damming in the Irish Sea to make lagoons to produce all the power for the UK and Ireland would create maybe two land links anyhow and maybe one to the Isle of Man. This gives high speed transport bridges. Super fast Maglev trains between major centres and to Ireland become feasible as running cost are low.

All cars can be electric, and the auto industry is currently moving that way.

Overall the lagoon project is well worth looking much deeper into, and clearly looks highly feasible when all points are viewed.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel" saying something like:

Why stop there?

A dam from Holyhead to Rosslare and one from the Giant's Causeway over to Stranraer and fill in a substantial part of the middle with mountains moved from the Highlands. A tremendous project - creates thousands of square miles of new land, makes the majority of Scotland useable for high-speed links to the fishing and watersports arenas to be built on the west coast.

The filled-in bit in the middle could be claimed by the IoM out to at least the old international boundary and could be home to several TT circuits or simply be a huge area of unrestricted speeding.

Well done, Drivel, you've cracked it.

[Doctor Drivel]

Thank you.

[Doctor Drivel]

"tidal lagoons" are very predictable. The tides and their heights are predicted to the minute many years ahead. Power output can be equally predictable too. It will be 24/7 as lagoons empty and fill.

[Steve Firth]

Minor edit needed.

s/ it// s/'v/'r/

[Doctor Drivel]

This one needs tagging.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Danish government recently pulled the plug on financing wind, after realising that although in theory it provided a significant percentage, they've not managed to switch off a single power station due to its unreliability as a stable and predictable power source. They simply end up with almost the same excess power to sell, which no one will buy because no one has any use for an unreliable power source. This was not a decision taken lightly, as wind power construction was a significant Danish export, which is expected to be severely clobbered by this. Indeed, the Danish decision has caused a number of other European governments to rethink their spend on wind too. Over reliance on wind across several continental EU countries was a contributory factor to the large blackout across chunks of continental EU. The idea that "when our wind stops blowing, we'll buy power from next door" didn't work when no-one's wind was blowing.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Or when there simply weren't enough extremely expensive trans-national power lines to make it a practical proposition.

People can always be relied upon to do the right thing-after they have exhausted every other possible alternative.

Even the Danes.

You only need go back 150 years or so when ships sailed and windmills drained the east anglian fens.

The thousands of windmills were replaced by dozens of steam pumps, then by a few dozen diesel pumps, and finally by a very few very reliable electric pumps.

Of course thousands of people who used to work on the windmills, are now a few people who maintain the electric pumps.

A point made brilliantly on the beeb when some airhead spluttered on about 'every terawatt of wind power creates 75,000 jobs, but every terawatt of nuclear power generates just 75 jobs'

AS if that made windpower somehow better rather than merely 1000 times more expensive..

The disjunct between people who think that creating jobs is a Good Thing

*per se*, and those who understand that the wealth of a nation consists in creating wealth, not jobs, and that once you have a cake to slice, THEN you can argue about who gets invited to the party..seems too broad to be bridged.

Any Fule can create a job. Even the Laber Guvmint has been doing it for ten years..

It takes a lot more intelligence to create an industry that does more than be a complete public sector parasite on those who DO generate wealth.

[tim.....]

This is not necessary the "blow" that people are portraying it as.

Denmark's problem is, as an almost completely flat country, it has absolutely nowhere to build the "stored power" installations that are necessary to complement an unpredictable source.

tim

[The Natural Philosopher]

MM. I calculated that to use windpower in this country we needed a lake the size of Loch Ness 1000 feet up a mountain.

That would keep us going just 24 hours..

And there ain't no location here either.

And essentially - apart from the three times as mych generating capacity you need with wind, versus conventional or nuclear (to cope with the 30% load average of windmills even when working) add another one as well, making the total capacity 4 time peak requirements.

Now lets look at a grid that can take all that power from Loch Ness, or whereber, down to london..so we might as well double the cost of the grid as well..

Add in the 100,000 windmills you need, and england is going to look like an industrial site wherever you stand on it. If indeed there is room to stand anywhere..

With respect tim, your answer is rather typical of people who haven't actually done the sums. Or most of the windmill people.