At the end of December, last year, whilst I was away for a week, I had some fungus intrude into my living room at floor level from one of the exterior walls. I informed the landlord, and they scraped it away and put bleach down. It hasn't come back, but there's still something of a fungal/"wet dog" smell in the area. The property is a recent (2002) conversion of an old church (~1850s) with thick exterior stone walls. The fungus came through near a chunky stone pillar that shows significant signs of efflorescence in its paintwork. For better or for worse, I've now bought the property.
The fungus looked *very* much like , but is there any chance it's /not/ S. Lacrymans (aka Dry Rot)? As the fruiting shown in the photo is the last stage for Dry Rot, is it probably gone for good in that patch now, or should I get the carpets, skirting board and interior stud wall ripped up to check?
I would definately get the carpets and skirting lifted and have a look-see (and get some current photos for comment by the group). This shouldn't cause too much disruption.
A borescope can be hired which allows you to peer inside wall cavities whilst only making a small home.
Alex, I'm sorry to tell you I think you probably have a major battle on your hands. Did you actually see a fruiting body, as in your picture? If so there is little doubt this is true Dry Rot, Serpula Lacrymans. As you say, the fruiting body is the final stage of development, but that doesn't mean the end of it, far from it. As long as it has a source of food and the conditions are right it will just keep on spreading. The point about dry rot, how it gets its name, is that once established it can transport moisture from one location in order to attack otherwise dry and healthy timber in another. The "feelers" it sends out to transport the moisture and search for food can even find their way through masonry, and any part of the fungus that is not killed off by treatment or burning is able to regenerate.
The reason it is fairly rare is that it is very picky about the conditions it needs to thrive. It has to be slightly damp (not too much), dark, and lacking any ventilation. There must be a place somewhere in your building, under the floor probably, where these conditions exist. It's too late now for ventilation alone to cure it (which it would do if it were cellar fungus or other type of wet rot) but it will at least hinder it from spreading, so you need to check that there are adequate airbricks to ventilate the floor void.
This is a serious problem and often requires drastic measures to get rid of. There's a chapter in the Book of Leviticus in the Bible that describes how to get rid of dry rot - pull the house down and cast the stones into an unclean place. Nowadays there are chemicals that can kill it, but all infected wood has to be removed and burnt, and often all masonry affected needs to be injected. Bleach isn't effective at all. This isn't a DIY job, you need to call in a specialist building preservation firm.
My feeling, if the conversion was only 4 years ago, is that developer probably failed to take proper measures to prevent rot attack and you may have a legitimate claim against him, but you will need a Chartered Building Surveyor's report to confirm that. If you had a full survey done when you bought it, your surveyor might have been expected to point out the lack of ventilation, even if he couldn't inspect the timbers. And if there's an NHBC Certificate you probably have a valid claim on that too. Otherwise I'm afraid normal building insurance policies do not cover this.
I don't agree with that bit though for two reasons. Firstly, many timber treatment firms seem to be in a similar class to the damp proofing ones! Secondly there is no black magic here - dry rot is eminently DIY treatable.
The first thing to do is fix the cause of rot (i.e. the source of water). Then get the ventilation right so that you prevent the possibility of return. Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an additional meter of sound wood beyond that. Hack off the plaster, treat all masonry in the surrounding plus woodwork in the surrounding area using suitable chemical treatments. Let it dry out for a little bit and then replaster and decorate etc.
That's true, but there are some very good ones too.
Correct advice but so easy to say. Renewing all timber within a metre distance could involve complete renewal of the ground floor, partial renewal of plumbing and electrical installations, perhaps a new staircase, plus all the plastering, tiling and decoration. The fruiting body and the appearance of fungus 10 months ago suggests the fungus may have spread extensively.
I agree dry rot is treatable by the DIY-er if it's not too extensive and as long as he understands how easily the fungus can regenerate and attack perfectly dry timber. Personally I think I would prefer to have a guarantee. But before Alex dives into trying to cure it himself he needs to at least have a thorough investigation and a professional report on how it was caused and the extent of treatment required if he is to have any hope of claiming the cost back.
That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the decayed sections.
That's is not correct and make no sense if you think about it. It's a fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.
Any guarantee issued by a remedial company will require you to keep your house in a water tight condition (ie.: well maintained). Essentially: keep your house dry and you wont get dry rot. It's an easy guarantee to make and even easier to get out of.
That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the decayed sections.
That's is not correct and makes no sense if you think about it. It's a fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.
Any guarantee issued by a remedial company will require you to keep your house in a water tight condition (ie.: well maintained). Essentially: keep your house dry and you wont get dry rot. It's an easy guarantee to make and even easier to get out of.
Go back and read Peter Taylor's first post! Water is one of the decay products and the hyphae transfer it to fresh sites. It may go quiescent when it is completely dry and relatively well ventilated, but it won't be dead. Box it up when it isn't all removed and it will start up again. Been there, done that.
I think the point we were both making is that dry rot is able to carry its own water supply from the "damp" area into other dry ones. So timber that is itself dry can be attacked so long as there is still a source of water to the fungus elsewhere.
Water isn't a decay product -- it's transferred to the decay site by the hyphae. It is required to increase the moisture level of the timber under attack so the enzyme the dry rot produces which breaks down cellulose in the timber can operate. This forms the food to enable the hyphae to grow. Sometimes there's an excess of water and you can see tiny droplets hanging from the fungus. It was thought at one time that dry rot could extract moisture from the air, but I don't think this is believed anymore, and probably arose from seeing those tiny water droplets.
Even if it was all removed, if you box it up in same conditions as before, another spore will germinate (although it does require a slightly tighter moisture range to germinate than to grow after germination). The spores blow around everywhere anyway, as it's been spread across the UK for centuries.
Dry rot is native in caves of the Himalayas where it feeds on tree roots which break through the cave walls. It was imported to the UK in the hulls of wooden ships, and the goods carried (particularly wooden ones) ensured it was distributed across the UK. The native climate in the UK is too dry for dry rot to germinate and live, but micro climates found in buildings can sometimes emulate the conditions in a damp cave.
This is partly true, but what I said was also correct.
You're right that DR will not initially attack dry timber (anything less than 20% moisture content), so there must be (or have been) some damp timber in a poorly ventilated situation for it to have started in the first place. The various species of "wet rot" need higher levels of moisture, but DR prefers only a very low level, around 22%. That's why it's quite common for attacks to occur when a building is drying out, for example after flooding or after a quenching by firemen's hoses.
However, once it is established, DR is unique in that it can transport moisture from this damp location to other timber that might be bone dry, and cause it to become damp enough for the fungus to extract the cellulose. Wet rot will only attack timber that is already damp. I remember seeing one case of DR in the cellar of a hotel, where the fungus had spread upwards of
10 metres from a damp wall, across the joists and boards of the floor above, which were nowhere near any dampness.
I agree that cutting off the source of dampness and allowing the structure to dry out will (eventually) cause the fungus to stop spreading. But that's often easier said than done. But the fungus doesn't die, in the sense it has been eradicated. If any dampness reappears the fungus will immediately come to life and start spreading again.
That's excellent. If you ever see someone on their hands and knees peering into an airbrick, you can bet he's either a nerdy surveyor like me or sometime in the past he's suffered a bout of dry rot! :)
Thanks for all your contributions. I've sent a letter to the management company, together with a print of the photo I linked to. Now it's just a case of seeing how they respond, whether dry rot is confirmed by a professional inspection, and who ends up paying.
Mainly because my property is only a leasehold, and partly because I'd like a guarantee to pass on to any nervous buyer in the future, I won't be taking this on as a DIY job, but I'm sure I'll become a regular in uk.d-i-y in due course (I nearly contributed to the 'fishy smell' thread, but you guys seem to have nailed it - I was going to suggest the light fitting too! :-)
It eats cellulose. Some of the carbon turns into carbon dioxide. Some of the hydrogen and oxygen turns into water. In that sense water is one of the decay products. The hyphae transfer this to a dry site and the process continues.
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